The Testing Chat III: The Time of Great Chatting

[RogueIce]

the old-style STGODs were in full swing without the point scores and numbers to bog them down

Hey I liked the point systems, for the most part.

Mainly because it made things a shitton easier to create than "oh that sounds reasonable but wait somebody made an even bigger/badasser fleet or fuck gotta redo it" and so on.

It could go wrong, of course. SDNW3 was an example of that, mainly due to the min/maxing of Springsharp.

[Gands]

I think there's a bit of truth in what Straha says in how the place has changed. I know I've mellowed quite a bit, and that most of the people who still post on TEO haven't. Case in point, try and get involved in any Star Wars discussion now and see if guys like Havok or Elfdart jump on your back. Or hell, guy's like Batman act like vampires as soon as they enter a thread. All the life gets sucked straight out.

You could say the same thing about N&P, there's probably 4/5 people who routinely shit up threads as soon as they go near their own personal tripwires. Then it gets diverted down the same few paths.

[Questor]

Well, that was predictable.

Yet another cop related thread shitted up. I am so tired of "all US cops are bad because a minute fraction of them have done shitty things." If I were to go try and judge any other group like that on SDN, somebody'd call me [whatever]-ist - and they'd be right.

I really have zero idea why KS and the other guy stick around. It's quite obvious that the institutional culture at SDN looks at them like they are barely restrained mad dogs.

I will not engage in discussions on the specific topic in a public forum. If you want to know why, PM. I'm happy to discuss generalities about cop threads on TEO, though.

[Losonti Tokash]

cause it's not a minute fraction and they regularly get away with blatant murder lol

[Flagg]

Seriousely. Cops in the US are dicks in general, not in rare occurances. And yes, keeping a "blue wall" up counts as being a dick.

[Questor]

cause it's not a minute fraction and they regularly get away with blatant murder lol

If you can find me evidence that an appreciable fraction of police have committed a felony as an officer (and let's define appreciable as 5%) then I'll admit I'm wrong and shake in my boots whenever a person in a blue uniform looks at me like a proper SDN denizen. If you can't then kindly STFU and quit threadshitting.

Seriously, people are defending a person who allegedly murdered two inarguable innocent people just because he has a beef with LAPD? Whether he's justified or not - he crossed a line when he brought families into the situation.

Flagg - I don't disagree, but we are witnessing in that thread WHY they are. Stark is about three steps away from going "They deserved to be be murdered because they were related to a cop."

[Flagg]

Dude, a bunch of cops shot up a car with an elderly woman and her middle aged daughter without warning (in an attempt to flat out murder a copkiller), hitting one of them. Were they arrested? Nope, administrative leave. Paid.

[Questor]

Dude, a bunch of cops shot up a car with an elderly woman and her middle aged daughter without warning (in an attempt to flat out murder a copkiller), hitting one of them. Were they arrested? Nope, administrative leave. Paid.

That's wrong. Did I say it wasn't? That was also 3 cops out of 10,000. Hardly a representative sample.

[Flagg]

And what was the reaction, dumbass? Were arrests made for attempted first degree murder?

[Questor]

And what was the reaction, dumbass? Were arrests made for attempted first degree murder?

Did I or did I not just say that that was wrong, you sanctimonious prick?

[Flagg]

And what was the reaction, dumbass? Were arrests made for attempted first degree murder?

Did I or did I not just say that that was wrong, you sanctimonious prick?

Wow you really are I'M A JUGGALO WOOP WOOP. I point out that the problem is so systematic that people can flat out shoot an innocent person in an attempt to commit capital murder against a suspect and not be immediately arrested for it and that's your response? "It's wrong, but it's just 3 out of 10,000!" Which ignores the thousands it takes for something like that to happen.

[Questor]

And what was the reaction, dumbass? Were arrests made for attempted first degree murder?

Did I or did I not just say that that was wrong, you sanctimonious prick?

Wow you really are I'M A JUGGALO WOOP WOOP. I point out that the problem is so systematic that people can flat out shoot an innocent person in an attempt to commit capital murder against a suspect and not be immediately arrested for it and that's your response? "It's wrong, but it's just 3 out of 10,000!" Which ignores the thousands it takes for something like that to happen.

Bite me, asshole.

A) They were placed on administrative leave immediately. No, they weren't arrested (as a civilian probably would be in this situations), but that doesn't mean they won't be after an investigation is done*, doctors are not arrested immediately when a patient dies on the table either, even when the patient should not have been at risk. Personally, I'd rather the cops were slower to arrest in civilian cases, too. Would you rather they wait until they have the evidence to charge and have the suspect on the street longer, or arrest immediately? I think the standard should be heavily weighted to the former and am glad when it is, despite the fact is that it's not that way for the reasons I would prefer.
* Do I think they will be - no - but I'm not going to assume they won't be, especially as hurried shootings are an issue in socal right now and there will be political pressure.

B) I wasn't in their heads, I don't know why they fired. I can think of several reasons for firing that - while evidence that someone might not be cut out for a job as a bodyguard, might leave someone well qualified to write speeding tickets and arrest drunk drivers. I also try to avoid making assumptions and hasty generalization and will wait for the inevitable investigation.

[Losonti Tokash]

Oscar Grant was executed while held down by police and begging for his life. Kelly Thomas was tazed and beaten with flashlights by six police officers and died five days later. Doug Zerby was shot 21 times by police that did not announce themselves or give any warning. The police have so far tried to murder three people they thought might have been Dorner with absolutely no announcement or warning. These are just a few examples from Los Angeles alone and the worst anyone got was that Grant's murderer was convicted of manslaughter and served 11 months.

[Questor]

Oscar Grant was executed while held down by police and begging for his life. Kelly Thomas was tazed and beaten with flashlights by six police officers and died five days later. Doug Zerby was shot 21 times by police that did not announce themselves or give any warning. The police have so far tried to murder three people they thought might have been Dorner with absolutely no announcement or warning. These are just a few examples from Los Angeles alone and the worst anyone got was that Grant's murderer was convicted of manslaughter and served 11 months.

What does this prove? The Kelly Thomas incident is an embarrassment that has been a massive problem for the Fullerton Police Department, and the officers involved are going to trial. What's the issue here?

Grant's murderer (and he was a murderer) was charged with murder and found not guilty of that by a jury - It was also in San Francisco. Isn't that the way the system is supposed to work? Or should he just be executed because he was accused and is a police officer?

I'm not familiar with Doug Zerby, but according to the story here, it sounds like the LBPD officers were idiots - I'm not sure if that rises to the level of murder using California's definition, though, as the intent has to be to kill unlawfully, and a police officer being a moron is probably not intending to kill unlawfully.

Of those three, only one was in even Los Angeles county.

[Losonti Tokash]

Go murder someone on camera and tell me how it works out for you. If you're a cop, better than even odds nothing happens. If something actually does, compare to what a civilian would get.

The fact you think police get equal treatment under the law let alone are regularly punished is fucking hilarious.

[Questor]

Go murder someone on camera and tell me how it works out for you. If you're a cop, better than even odds nothing happens. If something actually does, compare to what a civilian would get.

The fact you think police get equal treatment under the law let alone are regularly punished is fucking hilarious.

* Do I think they will be - no - but I'm not going to assume they won't be, especially as hurried shootings are an issue in socal right now and there will be political pressure.

By the way, two of those incidents, plus the ones below are why hurried/stupid shootings by police are an issue in socal.

No, they weren't arrested (as a civilian probably would be in this situations), but that doesn't mean they won't be after an investigation is done*,

The fact that you chose moronic examples, other than Doug Zerby, is not my fault. Neither is the fact that you apparently have trouble with reading comprehension.

Better examples that have not resulted in charges yet (albeit not LAPD):

Manuel Diaz (Anaheim)

Mario Romero (Vallejo)

Javier Gonzales-Guerrero (San Jose)

[Losonti Tokash]

Whoops sorry I picked the most publicized and egregious examples of police brutality that still resulted in no or pathetically lenient punishments. I like that we now have over half a dozen police murders and attempted murders on this page but you still think it's the poor cops being demonized. I personally know a man who had his mouth held open by police so they could spray a fire extinguisher into it but hey we don't know what was going on in their heads. They might not be qualified to safely use force but they can write a traffic ticket just fine which is why we give them a deadly weapon anyway.

PS it shouldn't fucking take political pressure to get cops prosecuted for this shit which is even more evidence for how fucked police culture of protection is.

[Bakustra]

funnily enough, it is also quite possible for american police forces to be primarily composed of ordinary, average joes, with only a minute fraction actually committing murders and brutally assaulting people, and yet have the majority be complicit in such crimes. it's the same reason that pinning my lai on william mccalley or (arguably) pinning abu ghraib on general karpinski were essentially miscarriages of justice- in order for these things to happen on a regular basis, as they do, the overall culture has to be lax enough for people to feel assured that they'll feel protected when they commit crimes.

even then, police forces regularly act with mass brutality, such as the behavior of the Detroit cops during the 1967 riot, or Bloody Christmas in LA, or the death of Adolph Archie in New Orleans, or the murder of Jose Campos Torres- and these are all things where the misconduct is blatant and inarguable. Let alone that virtually all advice on dealing with the police written by people involved with the criminal justice system suggests treating cops as predators because that's what they think like. None of the cops I've known and none of the soldiers I've known have been involved with abusive actions, but that doesn't change that American police forces and the US Army have serious problems with that. Of course, this is somewhat more nuanced than TEO types usually express, so w/e.

[Aaron]

Is that because US police forces seem to have large numbers of veterans? Guys who may already have a predator mentality? Or does being a cop just do that? Or are they just broken to begin with?

[Zod]

I've known plenty of guys that said they wanted to become a cop just so they could use their power to push people around and give them a hard time without a fear of repercussions. I've really gotta wonder how pervasive that sort of mindset is.

[evilsoup]

possibly it's part of the same culture that makes prosecutors throw every charge they can at a defendant & hope that they'll plea-bargain most of the charges away

from what I've seen from the outside, the USA has a seriously messed-up violent attitude towards crime in general, and I doubt that the police are immune to that

The 'blue wall' stuff is pretty universal amongst police everywhere, though. I generally trust the police over here, but the Independent Police Complaints Commission is widely considered a bad joke because it is mostly staffed by former police, police incompetence & crimes from the 1980s have just recently been brought to account... and that's just the high-profile stuff, of course. I have no doubt that a lot of lower-profile things will never be resolved.

It's not even limited to the police. All large organisations have the natural reaction to cover up fuck-ups. Though when the police fuck up, I guess it tends to be worse, since their job can involve committing violent acts.

[timmy]

So my 2IC was approached by our old boss while the former was(is, at time of writing) on a friend's hen's night(bachelorette party for NAmericans). 2IC never had much time for the old boss. Let her have it with both barrels. I gather this was high drama on the scene. Wondering what the fallout will be.

[Oxymoron]

So my 2IC was approached by our old boss while the former was(is, at time of writing) on a friend's hen's night(bachelorette party for NAmericans). 2IC never had much time for the old boss. Let her have it with both barrels. I gather this was high drama on the scene. Wondering what the fallout will be.

I didn't understand any part of that.

Is that because US police forces seem to have large numbers of veterans? Guys who may already have a predator mentality? Or does being a cop just do that? Or are they just broken to begin with?

Anecdote, but I know a guy from the internet who's working to join the Infantry, and planning to move to a police or security job after doing his time. I don't think he's even 18 yet.

[Questor]

Whoops sorry I picked the most publicized and egregious examples of police brutality that still resulted in no or pathetically lenient punishments. I like that we now have over half a dozen police murders and attempted murders on this page but you still think it's the poor cops being demonized. I personally know a man who had his mouth held open by police so they could spray a fire extinguisher into it but hey we don't know what was going on in their heads. They might not be qualified to safely use force but they can write a traffic ticket just fine which is why we give them a deadly weapon anyway.

Are you just too fucking stupid to understand why "rush to judgement" is a bad idea in general, or is this a specific blind spot for you?

You picked idiotic examples and didn't check them whatsoever:
A) You claimed the examples were from LA, which only one of them was in any specific way.
B) You complained about nothing happening to people who have been charged with murder, because the trial has not taken place yet.
C) You complained specifically about the punishment handed out by a jury in a case where the offender was on trial. What exactly are you asking of the state, star chambers? If so, why should these modified procedures only apply to police?

PS it shouldn't fucking take political pressure to get cops prosecuted for this shit which is even more evidence for how fucked police culture of protection is.

No shit. Did I say it should, or did I say that it does?

t's not even limited to the police. All large organisations have the natural reaction to cover up fuck-ups. Though when the police fuck up, I guess it tends to be worse, since their job can involve committing violent acts.

unnily enough, it is also quite possible for american police forces to be primarily composed of ordinary, average joes, with only a minute fraction actually committing murders and brutally assaulting people, and yet have the majority be complicit in such crimes.

This is where the point I'm trying to make comes from. It takes an extraordinary person to become a whistleblower or informer on their colleagues. It takes an unusual person to put aside all previous experience and knowledge and truly look at something - anything - and make any kind of determination against a member of a peer group, especially one as tight knit as a workplace. Neither of those are attributes of "average joes."

Is there a lot to do to change the culture of the police? Yes.

I think one of the best things that could be done is to finish the divorce of the "public order" aspects of police departments - the traffic cops, first responders, guards, for example - from the "investigative" aspects. Perhaps you could attach the investigators to the District Attorney's office (in the US system). Doing this would create better separation between the people investigating a crime and the groups where the abuses tend to occur. It wouldn't create a perfect system, but I do think it would be a step in the right direction in reducing the "circle the wagons" mentality that occurs whenever any organization has to investigate itself for any reason.

Ironically, this type of separation is routine in the United States for police, but the lines are drawn extremely inefficiently on geographic/organizational lines rather than functional ones. Take Los Angeles, for example. You have the LA Port Police, LA Airport Police, LA GSA Police, LAPD, LAUSD Police, and the LA Park Rangers, not to mention CHP, LA County Sheriffs, FBI, US Marshals, Secret Service, Customs and Border Patrol, Federal Reserve Police, US Forest Service Rangers, Federal Protective Service, Park Police, DEA, and ATF, AMTRAK and Postal Police and probably a few I haven't thought of. If that's not a recipe for disfunction and confusion, I don't know what is.

[Losonti Tokash]

Funnily enough, Adrian Schoolcraft tried exposing police corruption and so they broke into his house and dragged him into an insane asylum. Bakustra is right, though. Most cops are just complicit in ignoring crimes of other police. It is, after all, bad for your career/health to try and get them punished for brutality or corruption.