Lament 3: Cry Hard With A Vengeance

[Ralin]

To be honest I'd be pretty reluctant to start a relationship with someone who's more than nominally religious myself. I'm very anti-religious and the best I can do is tolerate it and agree not to argue about it, and if I really cared about someone I'd feel like I had at least some responsibility to get them to see the problem with their beliefs.

Catholic/Christian theology and ethics being what they are, I don't find it hard to see why Ryan would feel the same way in reverse.

[Agent Bert Macklin]

Depend. Is she a "tolerate & let live" atheist, or an SDN-brand smugtheist ?

Because if she's the former, you can easily agree to happily respect each other's opinion

After all, religion IS a deeply personal thing. You don't have to share it with anyone else.

Surely you realize that, from my perspective, she's going to hell, right?

Not in the sense that I want her to go there. It's simply the fact of the matter.

You're a fucking asshole, Ryan. Why can't you ignore her religious beliefs as long as she isn't shoving them down your throat? I;m an atheist and I do that. Why is that so hard for you to do? It's no wonder you have girl problems.

[Zablorg]

ryan is an artwork

[Oxymoron]

Isn't there something in the bible about how the most precious gift God gave to its creation is Free Will ?

Let's place us in a situation where you truly love someone who is destined to hell by their own choices, and even after you offered that person the option to be redeemed and they refused it, isn't it your duty as a Christian to tolerate her choice and continue to love her ?

After all, isn't to love the sinners and forgive them their sins the most important lesson Jesus gave us, surrendering his own life in the process ?

[Stofsk]

ryan is an artwork

[Aaron]

Depend. Is she a "tolerate & let live" atheist, or an SDN-brand smugtheist ?

Because if she's the former, you can easily agree to happily respect each other's opinion

After all, religion IS a deeply personal thing. You don't have to share it with anyone else.

Surely you realize that, from my perspective, she's going to hell, right?

Not in the sense that I want her to go there. It's simply the fact of the matter.

Isn't that God's job? He decides who gets in and who doesn't. I realize as a christian its supposed to be a big deal but it's not your place to make that determination.

That said, i can understand why you would feel this way.

[Oxymoron]

Plus, from my point of view, when the bible say people should "take Jesus as their Savior" in order to be accepted into God's paradise, I've never taken that as "you should become part of the church, go to mass, pray every night before going to bed, etc...", and more like "live by his message of peace, love, tolerance and forgiveness".

I don't think God cares much that you believe in him or not, as long as you live by the teaching of his Son-that-his-Him.

If God is as Loving as advertised, then he will accept those who do Good regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

[timmy]

ryan is an artwork

*scream*

Yes. Yes.

[Aaron]

Plus, from my point of view, when the bible say people should "take Jesus as their Savior" in order to be accepted into God's paradise, I've never taken that as "you should become part of the church, go to mass, pray every night before going to bed, etc...", and more like "live by his message of peace, love, tolerance and forgiveness".

I don't think God cares much that you believe in him or not, as long as you live by the teaching of his Son-that-his-Him.

If God is as Loving as advertised, then he will accept those who do Good regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

This.

[evilsoup]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

There's plenty of other quotes along the same lines, the woolly inclusive Jesus is a modern invention, not really very supported in the Bible

[Aaron]

The Bible is 2000 years old and has been translated and revised numerous times, who knows how far we are from the original.

[Oxymoron]

Dammit 'Soup, you broke it.


Yes, I knew that. But unless Ryan is a Fundamentalist / Bible Literalist, what is important is the current "interpretation" of the message, and not what was written 2000 years ago by people who thought that people loving each was evil if they weren't of the good matching pair sexually speaking.

Just go ask your friendly neighborhood priest, and he'll be the first to say that the Bible is not to be taken literally, and that God is Love and Acceptance (at least that's what my sister 3/3, who is a practicing Catholic, tells me).


By the way, that's part of the reason why I've never been able in the first place and then refused to believe in God : for me what is important is the good you do and the fights you choose rather than the deit(y)(ies) you pray. If God reward those who do good regardless of their religion, I win. If he doesn't exist, I loose nothing. If he condemn me to hell because I didn't worship him, regardless of all my other actions, then he never deserved my worship in the first place.

[evilsoup]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yRujuE-GIY4

[Oxymoron]

"friendly" neighborhood I said.

[Zod]

Depend. Is she a "tolerate & let live" atheist, or an SDN-brand smugtheist ?

Because if she's the former, you can easily agree to happily respect each other's opinion

After all, religion IS a deeply personal thing. You don't have to share it with anyone else.

Surely you realize that, from my perspective, she's going to hell, right?

Not in the sense that I want her to go there. It's simply the fact of the matter.

I'm sure there's a number of religious groups out there who think you're going to hell for being a Catholic instead of their own brand of zombie worship.

[evilsoup]

Yes, and I'm sure that would present a pretty high barrier to those people going out with ryan, as well

[Crazedwraith]

i know ragging on ryan is fun and all but really guys?

sorry you don't feel compatible with this girl ryan. Plenty of fish left in the sea though. even religious ones.

[evilsoup]

hey, I'm agreeing with him
well sort of

[Losonti Tokash]

well i'm pretty amused at idea of self described liberal christian thinking everyone else is going to hell but that's his loss so whatevs

[RyanThunder]

i know ragging on ryan is fun and all but really guys?

sorry you don't feel compatible with this girl ryan. Plenty of fish left in the sea though. even religious ones.

Yeah, thanks. I dunno why I thought it'd be a good idea to vent here of all places about it.

well i'm pretty amused at idea of self described liberal christian thinking everyone else is going to hell but that's his loss so whatevs

Christian liberal? Moderate. Whatever. The point is I don't try to inject my religion into politics or what have you.

[RogueIce]

If God reward those who do good regardless of their religion, I win. If he doesn't exist, I loose nothing. If he condemn me to hell because I didn't worship him, regardless of all my other actions, then he never deserved my worship in the first place.

It's because I'm brofisting you right now, you see.

Christian liberal? Moderate. Whatever. The point is I don't try to inject my religion into politics or what have you.

That's admirable of you. I say that without any irony whatsoever.

I do think you're sort of hurting yourself, so long as she is otherwise a good person even if she doesn't believe in God.

But it's your life and you're the one who has to live it, not me. So if that's your choice I'm not going to judge you for it. Because if you know it's going to be one of those nagging unspoken issues that eventually will cause problems, it probably is for the best not to pursue her romantically.

[evilsoup]

The Bible is 2000 years old and has been translated and revised numerous times, who knows how far we are from the original.

The Bible is also the most examined book in Western culture, there have been numerous translations of the most ancient texts available by experts in the languages of the time. Between versions, there will be minor differences in emphasis, and some important passages are inherently ambiguous because of a complete lack of punctuation in the original; but the passage I quoted is not one of thoese ambiguous passages, and the meaning is repeated multiple times within the Gospels, and indeed in later books.

By the way, that's part of the reason why I've never been able in the first place and then refused to believe in God : for me what is important is the good you do and the fights you choose rather than the deit(y)(ies) you pray. If God reward those who do good regardless of their religion, I win. If he doesn't exist, I loose nothing. If he condemn me to hell because I didn't worship him, regardless of all my other actions, then he never deserved my worship in the first place.

Oh lol what
I guess that smugness will be a great comfort to you when your roasting in your own body-fat in a put of unending fire for all eternity?
I'm sorry, that's just such a flippant position, it's only tenable when you're an atheist deliberately trying to to all the religious weirdos, I don't think it's particularly well-thought-out

[Zod]

Oh lol what
I guess that smugness will be a great comfort to you when your roasting in your own body-fat in a put of unending fire for all eternity?
I'm sorry, that's just such a flippant position, it's only tenable when you're an atheist deliberately trying to to all the religious weirdos, I don't think it's particularly well-thought-out

It's just a reverse Pascal's Wager.

[Questor]

Ryan - Seriously?

Just curious, but what theological branch do you belong to? Is it one that believes in sola fide?

Under Catholic theology, the argument can be made for an athirst's entrance to heaven. It almost has to be, given the history of movement.

[RyanThunder]

[...] if you know it's going to be one of those nagging unspoken issues that eventually will cause problems, it probably is for the best not to pursue her romantically.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.