Testing Chat IV: A New Hope

[Oxymoron]

Am I supposed to take the gun,the Walter, or both ?

[Aaron]

Walter

[Oxymoron]

With friends like those...

[Oxymoron]

On an unrelated note, I've re-watched "Usual Suspects" today, and I have been reinforced in my conviction that it is a great movie.

[Flagg]

That sentence is missing the word obliviously.

Which sentence?

The one where I marveled at how the Empire lovers used the exact same arguments as Nazi apologists. They do it without a clue they are doing it and get highly offended when you point it out.

[The Spartan]

Of course, they do. That's "not what they meant".

At all.

[evilsoup]

I think the Tau thing actually does, ultimately, come down to them not being human.

If the Imperium were aliens and the Tau were the humans, I doubt those people would be against the humans. Even with the forced sterilization stuff, the Tau are the least-bad of he major players.

[Jung]

I think the Tau thing actually does, ultimately, come down to them not being human.

If the Imperium were aliens and the Tau were the humans, I doubt those people would be against the humans. Even with the forced sterilization stuff, the Tau are the least-bad of he major players.

Yeah, I guess.

Though I still think there might be a bit more to the story than that.

I wonder if some of the appeal of 40K doesn't cross over with the same psychological wellsprings as SW Imperial apologism. Looked at one way, it's basically a setting tailor-made to validate the assumptions of conformist militaristic authoritarianism as objectively true in-universe. The state really is besieged by horribly evil enemies which cannot be negotiated with and want to eat you or do unspeakable things to your babies. Society really is being corrupted from within by subversive evil forces.

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

Actually I've watched the tau vs Imperial fans on 40K oriented boards and SB. I'm not sure if its just 'humanity fuck yeah'. Some of that has gradually been ABSORBED into the 'pro-Imperial' side, I've noticed one of the things that gets overlooked is their extreme xenophobia (or worse, seen as a good thing. I've known some pro-Imperial fans to react negatively to Avatar for example in a same way the pro-RDA side does.) but I suspect its more basic tribalism over who is 'better.' Alot of Tau/vs Imperium debates often go along the lines of 'who has better culture, less evil, better tech, etc.' Its very simplistic, competitive comparisons. Like with the recent Tau codex release alot of the pro-Imperial side have started ranting about how 'hur hur the tau suck they don't even have FTL' crap or osmething or other.. but like with the Necrons its less fact and more inference (because apparently some fans can't look at a codex as being anything less than THE BIBLE OF 40k. although like any bible its open to interpretation, pretty vague, and often slanted towards a particular bias.)

And the funny thing is its not just on the Imperial side. I find tau fans to be just as intolerable as I did when I was still 'hating' the tau - its amazing how arrogantly tau fans (Esp on SB) can lord it over the Imperium cuz of that GREATER GOOD shit (ignoring the fact the Tau are alot less 'good guy' since 3rd edition), or BETTER TECH (when its not a matter of better, but more of standardization) and how MUCH MORE MILITARILY REALISTIC they are (this is a big one for pro-tau, usually because the IMPERIUM IS SO WW1/WW2.)

Its actually a good example of how the tribal antagonisms can overspill into other areas. EG like in the Spoonist link if you dislike a certain set of blue-skinned aliens with an interesting/differnet lifestyle, you're more prone to hate other blue skin aliens with different lifestyles, etc.

Ironically its not much different form the same knee-jerk reactionism I find with alot of the BIGGATON haters. It isn't that they don't HAVE a legitimate reason, I don't think they grasp just WHY the hatred exists. It exists becaues far too many fanboys have used 'energy' as a substitute for RPG-esque 'hit point/damage point' scorekeeping values, and thus all debates become a matter of 'who has more hitpoints/attack points'. I mean noone ever criticizes the BIGGATONS in the Culture novels or Alistair reynodls or any other 'approved' authors, but if any other franchies who isn't approved' even has a hint of them, in steps the kneejerk reactionism, because BIGGATONS ARE BAD NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCE.

Tank vs Mecha discussions operate under a similar degree of kneejerk reaction too, because they often assume every Mech must be like Battletech or a 40K titan. The last is esp hilarious given how often Tau battlesuits are compared to GUNDAM even though the two aren't even remotely the same thing.

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

I wonder if some of the appeal of 40K doesn't cross over with the same psychological wellsprings as SW Imperial apologism. Looked at one way, it's basically a setting tailor-made to validate the assumptions of conformist militaristic authoritarianism as objectively true in-universe. The state really is besieged by horribly evil enemies which cannot be negotiated with and want to eat you or do unspeakable things to your babies. Society really is being corrupted from within by subversive evil forces.

could be, although 40K and Star Wars aren't even remotely the same if you've watched a 40K vs SW debate. They can be just as vitriolic as any SW vs ST debate. I have noted that some people will conflate 'big universe vs small universe' sorts of things though, like if the TAu Empire is a big threat to the Imperium, that means the ST federation is (40K vs ST is only slightly less more common and polarized than SW vs ST, so you can get alot of cross-feeling there.)

When you get down to it, all the problems stem less from the source materials and how people interpret them. And arguments are all about the interpretation, not the facts. Which is why things get so quasi-religious and dogmatic if, for example, the ICS gets mentioned. If that damn book hadn't been elevated to near-bible standards (in both a positive and negative light) the whole discussion would be a whole lot less tedious and long winded than it actually is. People no longer question or look at things beyond a narrow tunnel of one possiblity or another, and thats true of a good many debates actually.

[Bakustra]

Jung, you've gotten me to sign up for Spacebattles to argue against one form of RPG nonsense with another form of RPG nonsense. I hope you're happy.

[Jung]

Jung, you've gotten me to sign up for Spacebattles to argue against one form of RPG nonsense with another form of RPG nonsense. I hope you're happy.

What's this referring to? I'm just curious.

[Bakustra]

Jung, you've gotten me to sign up for Spacebattles to argue against one form of RPG nonsense with another form of RPG nonsense. I hope you're happy.

What's this referring to? I'm just curious.

The "what can beat an Absolute Mundane" thread in Vs. Debates. My alias should be obvious, and it's also the last post in the thread.

[Darksi4190]

So I just went over to my friends for a lan, only to be forced to watch the first episode of My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. I know one of the infected slime here is responsible for this. I know you all talk and plot as one. I don't know how you infiltrated one of your misbegotten kind into my peer group, but I shall not be deterred from my quest to purge you from existance

[>:3]

the first episode?


i thought you were supposed to start people with dragonshy

[Jung]

The "what can beat an Absolute Mundane" thread in Vs. Debates. My alias should be obvious, and it's also the last post in the thread.

Ah, I think I found it. Thanks.

[Infinity Biscuit]

So I just went over to my friends for a lan, only to be forced to watch the first episode of My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. I know one of the infected slime here is responsible for this. I know you all talk and plot as one. I don't know how you infiltrated one of your misbegotten kind into my peer group, but I shall not be deterred from my quest to purge you from existance

one day you're going to look into the mirror

and the face you will see is batman's

[Big Orangutan]

About the "appeal" of the Empire and the Dark Side: Yoda stated that the Dark Side was easy and "joining" the Dark Side meant being very impulsive or very selfish, and more likely to cut corners (hence Anakin being a brat at times was not really unexpected). In Seven Morgan Freeman's character said something similar:

William Somerset: 'I didn't say I was different or better. I'm not. Hell, I sympathize; I sympathize completely. Apathy is the solution. I mean, it's easier to lose yourself in drugs than it is to cope with life. It's easier to steal what you want than it is to earn it. It's easier to beat a child than it is to raise it. Hell, love costs: it takes effort and work.'

Yeah, it's easier for Lord Vader to frighten his men into line by force chocking unlucky or inept subordinates (instead of forging better fighting units through patience and better selection of officers), it's easier for Grand Moff Tarkin trying to keep the Empire's systems together by using the biggest ray gun in existence (instead of helping to establish a better functioning and more inclusive galactic bureaucracy), and it was easier for Palpatine to tear down the Old Republic through war and police state thuggery instead of properly restoring it the long way round.

[Bakustra]

So I just went over to my friends for a lan, only to be forced to watch the first episode of My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. I know one of the infected slime here is responsible for this. I know you all talk and plot as one. I don't know how you infiltrated one of your misbegotten kind into my peer group, but I shall not be deterred from my quest to purge you from existance

[Big Orangutan]

I have never once understood the common opinion that the Nazis hit it off with aesthetics. The uniforms just look to me as if someone mangled together a police uniform with a box of decorations and called it a day.

The SS guys (and Heer tank crews) had skull badges incorporated into their uniforms and it seemed very appropriate:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=aLJUocaDYw0

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

Jung, you've gotten me to sign up for Spacebattles to argue against one form of RPG nonsense with another form of RPG nonsense. I hope you're happy.

You're going to regret it.

[Flagg]

Isn't it a miss manners forum?

[RogueIce]

Is that an actual Archie book?

Because I so want to read it now.

[RogueIce]

So I just went over to my friends for a lan, only to be forced to watch the first episode of My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. I know one of the infected slime here is responsible for this. I know you all talk and plot as one. I don't know how you infiltrated one of your misbegotten kind into my peer group, but I shall not be deterred from my quest to purge you from existance

one day you're going to look into the mirror

and the face you will see is batman's

Seriously, dude. You're like inches away from being Rogue Rouge 9 with that post.

[Oxymoron]

Talking about Star Wars, on another forum someone posted that :

I just thought of something. And I'm sure plenty of people have thought of it before, but still. In the Star Wars prequels, at least, the Jedi are completely aware of what makes them able to use the Force: Midi-Chlorians. They know these organisms exist in their cells, and they can even do a per-cell count of them. Not ten years after the movie canon established this, they discovered that an army had been formed in secret. A clone army. One that had been designed for obedience and docility--in other words, to not rely on their own emotions and will too much. Why would the Jedi(secretly Sith) that formed this army not put in a little special order: make every single damn one of them a Jedi. Not just any Jedi, but militarized Jedi who don't back down from using guns. Maybe even are equipped with power armor powered by the same thing that powers the steel-melting plasma beams the Jedi use as weapons. Maybe, instead of blasters, they use kinetic weapons that they can use their TK to guide to their targets. Sentries can sense enemies. Mechanics can fix vehicles from inside the cab. Some of them could even use shields or bursts of energy like you sometimes see in the Pre-Ep. 1 books. There was a huge amount of missed potential there. Yes, I know that Sidious, when he placed the order, wanted them to fight the droids in a protracted war, not a curbstomp. But when the Jedi learned of it and were effectively militarized themselves, why did not one of these "wise and cunning" warriors ever think of it?

To which I responded :

Palpatine's plan was to takeover the Republic and turn it into a galactic empire with him at its head. Thing at which he succeeded. When you're an evil overlord, it's generally not too wise to give too much power, individually, to your rank and file soldiers. After all, who's to say that someone else couldn't maneuver them to unwittingly act against you, with all their supersoldier might ? From the point of view of the Sith Lords, they all had the interest in the world to limit as much as possible the number of Force Users, of people who could go toe-to-toe with them, on their playground. Also, out of universe, it wouldn't have fit with one of the theme of Star Wars, which is to say that the villains which tend to rely too much on technology and machines (The Empire, with the Death Star) are most vulnerable to the power of the human heart (Luke Skywalker and his space wizard powers).

Thoughts ?