Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

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Jung
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1826 Post by Jung »

So, anyway, this is kind of interesting (I randomly stumbled into the hypothesis from Peter Watts's blog):
Jaynes published only one book, in 1976, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, which tells the story of how mankind learned to think.
...
Jaynes began inspecting the world’s earliest literature for the first signs of human consciousness. “I started off like in a detective story,” he told a reporter for the Princeton radio station. As he moved backward through the centuries, he saw that consciousness, as he had defined it, disappeared somewhere between the Odyssey and the Iliad. Odysseus is a modern hero, introspective and deceptive. In the Iliad, the writing of which scholars date some three hundred years earlier, the characters are passive and mentally inert. They have no concept of a private mental space. The word “psyche” referred only to actual substances in the body, breath, and blood, which leave the warrior’s body as soon as he dies. The gods, emerging from mists or clouds or the sea, handle the warrior’s decisions. When Achilles accuses Agamemnon of stealing his mistress, Agamemnon insists he had no agency. “Not I was the cause of this act, but Zeus,” he explains. “So what could I do? Gods always have their way.”

Critics have interpreted the meddling presence of the god as poetic devices, but Jaynes accused translators of imputing a modern mentality to people with subjectivities foreign to us. “The gods were in no sense ‘figments of the imagination,’” he wrote. “They were man’s volition. They occupied his nervous system, probably his right hemisphere.” Jaynes drew on research with patients with severed corpora callossa, the band of fibers that separates the two hemispheres of the brain, which showed that the two chambers can function independently, without conscious awareness of information processed in the other half. Jaynes proposed that the Trojan War was fought by men with a kind of split brain, a “bicameral mind.” In moments of stress, the left hemisphere, “slave-like,” perceived hallucinated voices in the right hemisphere—the god hemisphere—as direct commands.

By roughly 1,000 B.C., earthquakes and overpopulation in the Mediterranean led to mass migrations, which caused an unprecedented degree of social upheaval, according to Jaynes’s speculation. The gods, who had provided guidance by transforming habit and intuition into speech, fell silent in the face of novel dilemmas. They retreated to the sky, where they gave ambiguous signs of their watchful presence. Humans were left alone, groping for answers. They still heard a voice, but they knew it was their own: they silently narrated their days, weighing options, imagining what others would think, making sudden pronouncements that they immediately doubted. Jaynes describes the muting of the gods as an excruciating loss from which we still have not recovered. “The mighty themes of the religions of the world are here sounded for the first time,” he writes. “Why have the gods left us? Like friends who depart from us, they must be offended. Our misfortunes are our punishments for our offenses. We go down on our knees, begging to be forgiven.”

Jaynes didn’t live to see the computer become the dominant metaphor for consciousness, but he was one of the first to recognize that the brain was capable of a radical kind of plasticity. “There is no such thing as a complete consciousness,” he writes. “All about us lie the remnants of our recent bicameral past.” He attributes one of the most mysterious mental phenomena—the sense that ideas come to us unbidden, from some external location—to the fact that our brains were once inhabited by gods. Artists in particular tend to describe their work in bicameral terms. They seem to be bragging when they describe writing as a form of listening: they hear a voice, almost audible, and then take dictation. It happens in moments of inspiration, late at night, when the writer is all alone.
...
In the last chapter of Origin, he presents science as yet another attempt by humans, still grieving the loss of the gods, to establish contact with a “lost ocean of authority.”
...
Jaynes describes human history as a story of substitutes, a search for “an eternal firmness of principle out there.”
Article snipped down. I'm pretty skeptical of this realistically but it's an interesting way of thinking about religion and the human search for meaning, no?

Edit: it'd make an interesting idea for aliens too.

Edit2: it also reminds me of something I heard a sociologist who studied evangelical Christians say: that they cultivated a habit of thinking of their minds not as closed systems but as open systems in which they could hear the voice of God and the trick was separating the voice of God from their own thoughts. I remember thinking of this when I read about how Joan of Arc claimed to be acting on commands from God, and thinking this might well have been the default way of thinking for most of humanity historically.

Infinity Biscuit
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1827 Post by Infinity Biscuit »

I find it interesting how tumblr seems to have adopted Halloween (aka the entire month of October) as the biggest holiday of the year
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timmy
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1828 Post by timmy »

Which holiday would you prefer had primacy
"also it really shits my mum so it's a good way of winding her up"

-thejester

Infinity Biscuit
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1829 Post by Infinity Biscuit »

texan independence day :america:
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Darksi4190
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1830 Post by Darksi4190 »

for som reason i can;r focust right now. I ned to go to sleep or someting

Infinity Biscuit
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1831 Post by Infinity Biscuit »

if you're this drunk please be safe

drink lots of water, sleep on your side, and if you have anyone around have them watch over you while you fall asleep so you're ok
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Darksi4190
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1832 Post by Darksi4190 »

Its alright. I've been this drunk before. My family are celebrated drinkers. I'll shrug this off in an hour or two.

Darksi4190
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1833 Post by Darksi4190 »

thank you for your concern though.

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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1834 Post by Darksi4190 »

Also which ever one of you is talking to me on AIM to try and get me to sober up can stop now. It's enjoyable conversation but I really don't need your help.

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timmy
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1835 Post by timmy »

If you're saying that it's a pretty good indicator that you should either listen or get off the internet
Infinity Biscuit wrote:texan independence day :america:
On facebook earlier I got accused thus: "Dude you're one "Texas-edition" pickup and AR-15 away from being more American than Brandon"

So :flagg:
"also it really shits my mum so it's a good way of winding her up"

-thejester

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evilsoup
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1836 Post by evilsoup »

The Spartan wrote:
evilsoup wrote:so all this rabid anti-christian nonsense seems like a load of hyperventilating shittery to me
It might be easier to understand if you'd ever spent any significant amount of your life fucking surrounded by rabid Southern Baptists.
quite possibly lol
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Darksi4190
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1837 Post by Darksi4190 »

Ugh. Need aspirin. Now.

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Oxymoron
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1838 Post by Oxymoron »

Darksi4190 wrote:Ugh. Need aspirin. Now.
Moral of the story ?
No.

Dooey Jo
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1839 Post by Dooey Jo »

welp

here it is


still better than the original :smug:
DracuLax - when even Death can't scare the shit out of you

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joviwan
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1840 Post by joviwan »

Ultimate castle crashers copy?

Looks like it.

Looks similar to Castle Crashers.

Does it play the same way?

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Oxymoron
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1841 Post by Oxymoron »

>Magicka

As I suspected.
No.

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Darth Tedious
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1842 Post by Darth Tedious »

Halloween was celebrated in Australia as far back as 1888 (mostly by ex-Scots)
Until it was stopped by the church, because it's pagan fun

More Australian than Guy Fawkes Night :colbert:
adr rox worship him or suffer large
and so forth, etc.
also STAR TREK

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Oxymoron
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1843 Post by Oxymoron »

You'd think a holiday celebrating a criminal would be very Australian.
No.

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evilsoup
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1844 Post by evilsoup »

celebrating the death of a criminal
kinda sounds like the opposite of australian if you ask me
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Oxymoron
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1845 Post by Oxymoron »

My bad.
No.

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adr
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1846 Post by adr »

the more i watch "community" the more i love abed

i wish i was more like him
In the name of the moon, I will punish you!

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timmy
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1847 Post by timmy »

I recall from childhood that people used to burn effigies on Queen's Birthday holiday. Bit early for the winter solstice.
"also it really shits my mum so it's a good way of winding her up"

-thejester

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Jung
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1848 Post by Jung »

BTW you can read a PDF of that book I talked about here.

I read it all since yesterday; even if it's probably wrong it's an interesting read.

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The Spartan
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1849 Post by The Spartan »

Leaving aside the trainwreck that it has been and the kludge that it is, is anyone else appalled by how the people howling with outrage that we might spend money on keeping people alive and healthy are at least as often as not the same people that howled with outrage that we weren't spending money RIGHT NOW! on killing people on the other side of the planet?

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adr
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Re: Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

#1850 Post by adr »

yup
In the name of the moon, I will punish you!

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