Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

[Losonti Tokash]

no it was back in august i just noticed the ban thread

[Jung]

Speaking of SDN:

[quote=""Building A Mote in God's Eye" by Niven and Pournelle, as quoted by Atomic Rockets"]If the Drive allowed ships to sneak up on planets, materializing without warning out of hyperspace, then there could be no Empire even with the Field. There'd be no Empire because belonging to the empire wouldn't protect you. Instead there might be populations of planet-bound serfs ruled at random by successive hordes of of space pirates. Upward mobility would consist of getting your own ship and turning pirate.

[/quote]

The "successive hordes of space pirates" referenced are intended to evoke things like the nomadic cultures of Central Asia in the pre-gunpowder era. Basically, armies/fleets/whatever that arrive out of nowhere and hold you hostage. Sure, you can shoot back, but they are already in position to hurt you badly. Paying them tribute will tend to be more appealing than fighting.

Calling these people "pirates" is like calling the Huns or the Mongol hordes "raiders." It's technically accurate, but we have to remember that what the term evokes for us (small groups staging smash-and-grabs) is not exactly the reality behind our use of the word.

The way you counter them is by having defenses and institutions that buy time and allow an organized force to use 'collective defense' strategies. If you can delay an attacker until the massed force of twenty planets' Federal Navy arrives to blow away the raiding horde, then that attacker will soon cease to be a problem, and no sane people will act as attackers in the future.

But there's no incentive to do that if 'raider' groups can literally appear out of nowhere with no warning, and depart just as easily. Because in that case, it's much harder to make collective defense an effective deterrent.

On the one hand, the collective deterrent force cannot be used directly to block the attack, it can only go running around looking for where the attack came from to take revenge. Since that is inherently an uncertain process, it gives a would-be raider more grounds for optimism about his chances of getting away with it.

On the other hand, the very possibility of "raiders from nowhere" means that you can't afford to concentrate all the forces of your twenty worlds in a single deterrent fleet. If you scatter your fleets looking for the raiders' unknown base, and neglect the defenses of each of your worlds, the same group of raiders might well be able to hit several of your worlds in turn. So the vast majority of your forces must be kept at home to defend their own bases, and the total fraction of your forces that can be used for counterattack decreases.

In other words, if travel is fast and enemies can appear out of nowhere, then the enemy only has to be strong in one place to threaten you, while you must be strong in all places to deter a threat. This gives a strategic advantage to the smaller polity.

Plus, people don't simply form coalitions and organizations based on mutual defense, but also on ideology, culture, economic advantage, and many other things. Even if the pirate situation happened, pretty soon things would stabilize into coalitions of former pirates now running larger scale communities. The Franks were once considered a barbarian tribe by Rome. Now we just call them the French.

The irony is this sounds like it could make for a more interesting setting than the kind of Space Roman Empire set-up it "ruins".

The first thing that pops into my minds is "Space Dark Ages!" You used to have a Space Rome set-up, but then somebody invented a better hyperdrive that completely changed the dynamics to favor nomadic extractive "space pirates" over metropole-centered imperialists, and said "space pirates" destroyed and took over the empire. You'd have the old aristocracy bemoaning the death of civilization and the degenerate present ruled by jumped-up bandits, while to the masses their masters have simply changed from colonial aristocrats who look down their noses at and exploit the "proles" to alien nomads who look down their noses at and exploit the "dirt dwellers", while among the nomads the old pirates shake their heads at the decadent younger generation that has begun to acquire a taste for the luxuries of civilization and absorb its strange culture and ideologies.

It also has a certain resonance with the "feudal future" idea but presenting it in a very unromantic and cynical way which warms my inner progressive's heart.

[adr]

feudal reminds me, i think space fortresses are kinda underused. in fact i think movement is overrated and underappreciated at the same time

see ppl often criticize space fortresses because they can't move around like snub fighters, and well i don't think that matters, better to just sit still and take your lumbs

but on the other hand space fortresses are interesting in that that actually /do/ move. you could stay on the move to keep the counter attack folk guessing. you could cycle through different extortion stops on your orbit

naturally hyperdrives could do something similar to the orbit too



so like imagine a big ol space fortress that just leaps from place to place saying fork over one MILLION dollars or we'll just randomly bomb you and then move on to their next victim.

there's no separate staging area to attack, they operate from the mobile fortress, and attacking a fortress is no easy task... especially since you can't put it under siege since they'll just warp out of there.

[thejester]

[url=http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=159661]
The first thing that pops into my minds is "Space Dark Ages!" You used to have a Space Rome set-up, but then somebody invented a better hyperdrive that completely changed the dynamics to favor nomadic extractive "space pirates" over metropole-centered imperialists, and said "space pirates" destroyed and took over the empire. You'd have the old aristocracy bemoaning the death of civilization and the degenerate present ruled by jumped-up bandits, while to the masses their masters have simply changed from colonial aristocrats who look down their noses at and exploit the "proles" to alien nomads who look down their noses at and exploit the "dirt dwellers", while among the nomads the old pirates shake their heads at the decadent younger generation that has begun to acquire a taste for the luxuries of civilization and absorb its strange culture and ideologies.

It also has a certain resonance with the "feudal future" idea but presenting it in a very unromantic and cynical way which warms my inner progressive's heart.

Not sure about that.

If the drive is instantaneous then presumably all that is keeping a reaction force from arriving is the time it takes to communicate that they're under attack - and that could just be as simple as having a drive-equipped craft of their own who can jump to the fleet base and say 'help'. In which case being part of an empire/other political organisation makes a great deal of sense because a centrally concentrated fleet could rapidly react to a threat with overwhelming force.

More broadly - if you are space Erik the Red or something, what exactly are you hoping to gain from your little raiding trip? Presumably if you're at a level of technology that you can go zipping from planet to planet instantaneously there's not a great deal you'd actually need off a planet's surface. I think that quote about the nature of propulsion defining space empires is only half true - they're going to be defined economically as well. What is the nature of an economy of an interstellar economy?

Different idea, but possibly with the same result - let's say you do have amazing hyperdrive or whatever. Humanity's recorded history to this point has basically been the process of what we would call globalisation: isolated polities/ethnic groups/tribes/nations etc being slowly connected to a bigger world. We generally see that process through the lens of Western expansion/colonialism but it could equally be defined by the expansion of the big Asian/Islamic empires as well. But if you did invent this other type of travel, that whole dynamic would be reversed. You would have an essentially infinite space to expand into, with no humans awaiting your arrival and potentially no real reason to go seeking other human societies once you've arrived at your destination.

[Infinity Biscuit]

I have a random intense need right now that can only be fulfilled with butter chicken or a game about smooching people

probably both at once wouldn't work but I wouldn't complain

[Stofsk]

More broadly - if you are space Erik the Red or something, what exactly are you hoping to gain from your little raiding trip? Presumably if you're at a level of technology that you can go zipping from planet to planet instantaneously there's not a great deal you'd actually need off a planet's surface.

IIRC one of the sf authors of note (possibly Niven or Pournelle, but I can't quite recall) said something along the lines of space piracy is bunk - anyone who could make money being a space pirate could make way more money... not being a space pirate.

Being a space mercenary might be something else though. Or instead of piracy, privateers (which, uh, I guess were officially unofficial pirates)

I think that quote about the nature of propulsion defining space empires is only half true - they're going to be defined economically as well. What is the nature of an economy of an interstellar economy?

Good question. In some of the better realised scifi settings I've read, like the Night's Dawn trilogy, or even something like Mass Effect, interstellar economy is driven partly by the FTL drive systems and partly by what powers those FTL drives - fusion reactors, and the helium-3 that is needed to power those reactors.

Different idea, but possibly with the same result - let's say you do have amazing hyperdrive or whatever. Humanity's recorded history to this point has basically been the process of what we would call globalisation: isolated polities/ethnic groups/tribes/nations etc being slowly connected to a bigger world. We generally see that process through the lens of Western expansion/colonialism but it could equally be defined by the expansion of the big Asian/Islamic empires as well. But if you did invent this other type of travel, that whole dynamic would be reversed. You would have an essentially infinite space to expand into, with no humans awaiting your arrival and potentially no real reason to go seeking other human societies once you've arrived at your destination.

Maybe. While a no-limits (or close to no-limits - think of the speed of Star Wars' hyperdrive for instance) FTL could spread humanity everywhere, at the same time it's a substantial resource sink to settle on an alien biosphere and colonise it, terraforming it to some extent, and developing it. Finding a habitable terrestrial planet with a biosphere that isn't outwardly hostile to human life might also be exceedingly rare, even if you can go anywhere in the galaxy searching for said planets. Think about it - you need a planet with the right amount of gravity, the right amount of orbital inclination and rotational speed, with the right mix of nitrogen and oxygen (too little oxygen and you can't breathe without assistance; too much oxygen and say hello to apocalyptic bushfires and deafening lightning strikes), in the right goldilocks zone distance from the parent star or stars, a biosphere that can be terraformed to some extent. Those are the variables that are off the top of my head.

As an aside, I've been replaying the first Mass Effect and some of the details I really enjoy come from reading the planetary readouts of some of the worlds you come across, and reading shit like 'Although this planet is not inhabitable, it is essentially a pre-garden world and in a few thousand years could develop into an earthlike world fit for colonisation. The Council has thus declared it a sanctuary world.' That strikes me as pretty reasonable for a space civilisation to do, even if you don't have long-lived species you are still inclined to take the 'long view' of such things.

Anyway getting back to the point I was trying to make: the nature of setting up a colony on a suitable planet would entail a great deal of effort, and nascent colonies would still more than likely be dependent on more developed off-world production centres. So even with a speedy FTL drive, you might still get clusters of colonies with that kind of global support infrastructure and shared identity you mention.

[adr]

IIRC one of the sf authors of note (possibly Niven or Pournelle, but I can't quite recall) said something along the lines of space piracy is bunk - anyone who could make money being a space pirate could make way more money... not being a space pirate.

That's awfully dependent on the setting assumptions too, and they don't all need to be technical. Suppose ships are easy to get, but cargo licenses aren't (damned senators from the trade federation), and other jobs are rare too. This creates an unlicensed cargo sector.... which are fairly easy prey for pirates. What's the smuggler gonna do, call the cops?

The pirates aren't really interested in the cargo business, they just demand cash payments/the stuff they need. Otherwise, who knows what accidents could happen on your trip. The trade federation has a wink wink relationship with the pirates, as they drive up the cost of their competitors' service, helping enforce the monopoly. Getting caught means prosecutions for murder, extortion and racketeering, and they certainly can't /completely/ ignore that.... but since you benefit them, police resources tend to find higher priority issues.


I think that works anyway.

[evilsoup]

so space mafia pirates then

[Infinity Biscuit]

no it was back in august i just noticed the ban thread

wait I found one

[adr]

i just came cross a commercial product's site that had a section "What people are saying about us...." and it was one of those twitter feed thingies

...and ALL the messages visible in there were negative comments about the company and their product.


tip: don't put shit you can't control on your marketing page

[evilsoup]

I've decided that I'm going to approach life with the concept that everything is beautiful
^that is beautiful for the sheer sublime self-defeating fuck-uppery, hahaha
^^that is beautiful like one of those wasps that lay their eggs in a caterpillar, and whose young then eat their way out of the catapillar's living, paralysed body

[adr]

so space mafia pirates then

yeah. there's a lot of options though, really if you can think something up you can tweak the setting to support it (and this remains generally true with hard science)

another thing that could be fun is the time it takes to do a whole sensor sweep. so assume anyone in the star system can see anyone else (something i'm not sold on). if a probe jumps in... will it see you first? the advantage is prolly the defender who can have more eyes in the sky, but not necessarily

anyway suppose it takes 16 hours to do a full sky sweep. you might get lucky and see your target in the first minute of looking, or it might take the whole time and you find them in the last place you were going to look

it could be some degree of luck as to how long you survive - will you see someone first you can gtfo and if you see them second w/ hyperspeed they can just jump up and finish you

[Civil War Man]

another thing that could be fun is the time it takes to do a whole sensor sweep. so assume anyone in the star system can see anyone else (something i'm not sold on). if a probe jumps in... will it see you first? the advantage is prolly the defender who can have more eyes in the sky, but not necessarily

In that case I'd say the advantage is probably with whichever side has the longer range on their sensors. If the probe has the longer range they can just jump in outside the range of the defenders and scan at its leisure. If it's the defenders, they can see the probe coming before it can run its sweep. In a setting like that I could see cultures that are absolutely obsessed with the gathering and processing of information. Whoever can see the furthest has the advantage, and so you could have something like the whole recent NSA thing applied to every level of a society.

[adr]

indeed

on an unrelated note i got to play with a piano all alone today so i kinda let loose a little and i had a realization: you can hear a person's confidence when playing it! now i have to add a scene to my fanfiction where someone starts off timidly hitting it then it goes into something like a kick ass rock opera

[timmy]

That's called stagefright and it goes away with a combination of experience and alcohol.

[Jung]

Man, isn't that quote at the top of SDN misattributed to Voltaire and actually from some Neo-Nazi?

It definitely has that veiled whining about how bad it is that it's not socially acceptable to openly shit on minorities anymore like in the good old days feel.

Pretty darkly comical if true.

[Infinity Biscuit]

yeah we actually discussed that both here and on sd.net a while ago and yet it's stayed the same :L

[Bakustra]

More broadly - if you are space Erik the Red or something, what exactly are you hoping to gain from your little raiding trip? Presumably if you're at a level of technology that you can go zipping from planet to planet instantaneously there's not a great deal you'd actually need off a planet's surface.

IIRC one of the sf authors of note (possibly Niven or Pournelle, but I can't quite recall) said something along the lines of space piracy is bunk - anyone who could make money being a space pirate could make way more money... not being a space pirate.

Being a space mercenary might be something else though. Or instead of piracy, privateers (which, uh, I guess were officially unofficial pirates)

I think that quote about the nature of propulsion defining space empires is only half true - they're going to be defined economically as well. What is the nature of an economy of an interstellar economy?

Good question. In some of the better realised scifi settings I've read, like the Night's Dawn trilogy, or even something like Mass Effect, interstellar economy is driven partly by the FTL drive systems and partly by what powers those FTL drives - fusion reactors, and the helium-3 that is needed to power those reactors.

Different idea, but possibly with the same result - let's say you do have amazing hyperdrive or whatever. Humanity's recorded history to this point has basically been the process of what we would call globalisation: isolated polities/ethnic groups/tribes/nations etc being slowly connected to a bigger world. We generally see that process through the lens of Western expansion/colonialism but it could equally be defined by the expansion of the big Asian/Islamic empires as well. But if you did invent this other type of travel, that whole dynamic would be reversed. You would have an essentially infinite space to expand into, with no humans awaiting your arrival and potentially no real reason to go seeking other human societies once you've arrived at your destination.

Maybe. While a no-limits (or close to no-limits - think of the speed of Star Wars' hyperdrive for instance) FTL could spread humanity everywhere, at the same time it's a substantial resource sink to settle on an alien biosphere and colonise it, terraforming it to some extent, and developing it. Finding a habitable terrestrial planet with a biosphere that isn't outwardly hostile to human life might also be exceedingly rare, even if you can go anywhere in the galaxy searching for said planets. Think about it - you need a planet with the right amount of gravity, the right amount of orbital inclination and rotational speed, with the right mix of nitrogen and oxygen (too little oxygen and you can't breathe without assistance; too much oxygen and say hello to apocalyptic bushfires and deafening lightning strikes), in the right goldilocks zone distance from the parent star or stars, a biosphere that can be terraformed to some extent. Those are the variables that are off the top of my head.

As an aside, I've been replaying the first Mass Effect and some of the details I really enjoy come from reading the planetary readouts of some of the worlds you come across, and reading shit like 'Although this planet is not inhabitable, it is essentially a pre-garden world and in a few thousand years could develop into an earthlike world fit for colonisation. The Council has thus declared it a sanctuary world.' That strikes me as pretty reasonable for a space civilisation to do, even if you don't have long-lived species you are still inclined to take the 'long view' of such things.

Anyway getting back to the point I was trying to make: the nature of setting up a colony on a suitable planet would entail a great deal of effort, and nascent colonies would still more than likely be dependent on more developed off-world production centres. So even with a speedy FTL drive, you might still get clusters of colonies with that kind of global support infrastructure and shared identity you mention.

Piracy IRL generally hasn't been all that economical either- the Golden Age of Piracy grew up because of the lack of governmental power in the Caribbean, the wealth moving through it, and the brutality of naval life, the wokou and other West Pacific pirate groups largely made their living by smuggling and again because of the lack of governmental authority during the later Ming, Somali pirates are in it for the ransoms rather than the cargo, etc.

Man, isn't that quote at the top of SDN misattributed to Voltaire and actually from some Neo-Nazi?

It definitely has that veiled whining about how bad it is that it's not socially acceptable to openly shit on minorities anymore like in the good old days feel.

Pretty darkly comical if true.

eventually they're going to just post the 14 words and then not change it for months on end

[Dooey Jo]

no it is just a bunch of flowers now clearly they are on the path towards friendliness

[Jung]

no it is just a bunch of flowers now clearly they are on the path towards friendliness

That is one obnoxiously huge picture.

[Infinity Biscuit]

embarrassment is such a weird feeling

[Bakustra]

no it is just a bunch of flowers now clearly they are on the path towards friendliness

wow advocating drug abuse

in memory of stark, "this is not an underground forum"

[evilsoup]

wait what is going on

[Infinity Biscuit]

poppies

[Jung]

wait what is going on

That quote SDN puts at the top of their page might have been one that was actually from a Neo-Nazi but was misattributed to Voltaire. They recently replaced it with a big picture of red flowers (poppies?).