New Testingstan

"The Duras family will one day rule the empire!"

"Perhaps.... but not today."


Gowron is the best Klingon ever.

Gowron was a total shit. I forget how many 'last chances' he gives Worf in Way Of The Warrior before re-dis-commendated him in a hissy fit. It was a number greatly in excess of one.

Martok's where it's at.

Martok didn't have Gowron's face.

I count that as a point in his favour

He had one fucking eye, way better.

Gowron was awesome I don't know what you guys are talking about

Frankly though I think DS9 regressed Worf's character arc as far as that klingon shit was concerned. I think by the end of 'Redemption' Worf knew his path and it implied he wouldn't look back. Then 'Way of the Warrior' came along and he angsted about turning his back on his people. What happened to all that 'It is our way!' 'Perhaps, but it is not MY way' stuff we got at the end of Redemption?

Stofsk wrote:Gowron was awesome I don't know what you guys are talking about

Frankly though I think DS9 regressed Worf's character arc as far as that klingon shit was concerned. I think by the end of 'Redemption' Worf knew his path and it implied he wouldn't look back. Then 'Way of the Warrior' came along and he angsted about turning his back on his people. What happened to all that 'It is our way!' 'Perhaps, but it is not MY way' stuff we got at the end of Redemption?

Peer pressure?

I think a lot of the Worf-Klingon issues were exposed by the proximity of Klingons. He probably had a lot easier time saying "It's not my way, screw you" when he wouldn't see another klingon for a year.

But that's the thing, it would only be relevant if he interacted with klingons to a larger degree than he would by remaining in Starfleet. Since the end of Redemption implies he turned his back on his people to walk his own path, why should it really matter to him to do so for a second time (this time where Gowron's bloodlust aims at far more than just one guy; Gowron wanted Worf to help him invade another space-faring state, not just execute an enemy of his).

Yeah, but Gowron also wasn't going away, and Sisko showed no interest in letting him be transferred. Hard to turn your back on the neighbors permanently. You still see them, and if they're the pushy, annoying types, they will still bug you.

You'd better deal with your issues with them, get them thrown out of the neighborhood, or leave yourself. Sisko convinced him the third option wasn't going to be productive, option two didn't look likely, so he had better go with option one.

It's also one thing for him to say he's through with the Klingons and another to actually follow up on that decision when he's faced with a motherfucking boulder of pressure from the leader of the Empire.

At the end of the day Gowron worked for me because he had all the hallmarks of a self-indulgent politician and a stare that implied he was going to cook and eat you.

Uraniun235 wrote:I won't satisfy Veef with a vitriolic rejection of the "post-apocalyptic/big war" series concept,

To be fair, the big one for me wasn't the post-apocalypse or even the big war concept, it was the FEDERATION CIVIL WARRR where we PURGE all those filthy fucking COMMIES!!.

Lol, got to get rid of the system that provides a fed citizen quality of life far in excess of what the average first worlder enjoys.

hey, whats the government structure of the federeration like anyway

cause it seems sort of like the contented self-sufficiency of 18th and 19th century china

you know

before the drug smuggling

like, obviously no emperor or anything, but it seems to me (im not really sure) that the bulk of the federation is comprised of a few very important core worlds (like china proper) with the other outland planets more akin to the tibet, mongol, manchurian and xianjing territories on the periphery of china. it seems to mesh with federation ideals as well, that local jurisdictions are governed according to local laws and customs. but at the same time, the government is highly centralized and bureaucratized. over all, te federation is content with being essentially isolationist and only ventures forth for knowledge and to peacefull preempt conflicts.

actually, it sort of falls down at the end, given the feds are pretty invested in going and meeting other people just cuz. china wasnt really like that at the time. also they arrogantly assumed that everyone was a subordinate, and refused to learn foreign ways, pretty obviously unlike star fleet.

artemas wrote:hey, whats the government structure of the federeration like anyway

cause it seems sort of like the contented self-sufficiency of 18th and 19th century china

you know

before the drug smuggling

like, obviously no emperor or anything, but it seems to me (im not really sure) that the bulk of the federation is comprised of a few very important core worlds (like china proper) with the other outland planets more akin to the tibet, mongol, manchurian and xianjing territories on the periphery of china. it seems to mesh with federation ideals as well, that local jurisdictions are governed according to local laws and customs. but at the same time, the government is highly centralized and bureaucratized. over all, te federation is content with being essentially isolationist and only ventures forth for knowledge and to peacefull preempt conflicts.

actually, it sort of falls down at the end, given the feds are pretty invested in going and meeting other people just cuz. china wasnt really like that at the time. also they arrogantly assumed that everyone was a subordinate, and refused to learn foreign ways, pretty obviously unlike star fleet.

well the feds still elect presidents and shit so there's at least some form of democracy going on

democratic socialist is about the only thing that would be remotely comparable, but they have a post-scarcity (more or less) economy as well which is pretty far out there to human experience really

yeah, for sure. that part is probably pretty centralized, as it is the "federal" level of government. but given the huge range in culture of the member states, i cant really imagine a common system being used for local governance.

i mean, i'm really thinking more on the organizational aspect, and less on democratic/not democratic. it seems pretty steady in policy as well, so either all voters are pretty conservative, or decision-making is highly bureaucratized.

EDIT: obviously by conservative i mean resistant to change. reasonably homogenous too, at least for federal politics. point is, the government seems to need some sort of damper on populism, becuase we (or at least I) don't see that.

Stofsk wrote:democratic socialist is about the only thing that would be remotely comparable, but they have a post-scarcity (more or less) economy as well which is pretty far out there to human experience really

except they can only spare one industrial replicator to bajor to facilitate their recovery from cardassian occupation

thats why their civilisation expands exponentially




man star trek fans are just bizarre people

moreso than still giving a shit about a bleh show from 20 years ago

but the cogitation rituals of rehashing the same stuff to get an internet hug from other fans is just bizarre to watch

who Who WHO

*shrug* Nothing was said about why though. Could be they just didn't want to piss off the Cardies. Or maybe its power intensive and the Bajorans couldn't run more then one.

Aaron wrote:*shrug* Nothing was said about why though. Could be they just didn't want to piss off the Cardies. Or maybe its power intensive and the Bajorans couldn't run more then one.

The simplest explanation is that Bajor is one world while the cardassians had multiple worlds in need of them.

artemas wrote:who Who WHO

wat am i a fuckin owl

combining 'post scarcity' with 'accessible modern politics' = 'stupid setting'

PROVEN WITH MATHES

hey stofsk it sounds like they have a scarcity of replicators

uh oh

yeah true

post-scarcity isn't quite right to describe the society that's depicted