New Testingstan

timmy wrote:I have an office job and people still look down at me.

Well, duh, you're sitting at a desk all days, you ass firmly set on your seat, and you don't need to shed a single sweatdrop to earn your pay, contrary to all those other hard workers. No wonder people have no respect for you.


^ what I said about distorted values.

Jung wrote:

Stofsk wrote:Somehow people should be happy to jump at the chance of working a menial job that has zero career growth and no prospects because... just because, really. Meanwhile the gap between rich and poor continues to widen and nobody is game enough to point out that in the game of 'who's the biggest spoiled brat' the rich win that category just like how they win everything else.

I wonder if it's tied in with our society's dismissive attitude toward manual labor

I mean all else being equal you'd expect a difficult shit job to be relatively high paying, right?

But it's manual labor ergo low status and hence "makes sense" the pay would be shit and the idea of making it a high paying job so Americans would want to do it just doesn't even occur to and is WTF to people

I think there's also a sense that you *have* to go to uni and get a degree and get a 'good' 'job', and the net effect of this is a lot of people get degrees which don't really matter to the jobs they go for or don't prepare them for whatever career they embark upon. Or in the worst case scenario, the degree is not only massively useless but also results in a considerable amount of debt.

Meanwhile the trades get less and less people into them which means supply/demand make relatively simple jobs command high prices and people wonder 'why the fuck did i waste years of my life and even more years paying off a debt when I could have just learnt how to be a tradie and fucking not owe a cent to anyone'. Not that I'm bitter or anything. I'm sure my lit major can do something. Somehow.

I kind of think our society's terrible attitude toward manual labor is one of those big problems in our society nobody talks about

Even the more social justice oriented people and I'd guess to a significant extent the poor themselves seem to think of that kind of lifestyle in terms of something to be escaped from to something better. Nobody really seems to say that somebody has to do this stuff and in a just society they'd damn well be able to have a decent life and take pride in doing it.

I'd guess it has to do with that the people stuck in that kind of life permanently are not really part of even the lowest orders of the chattering classes.

maybe this is just societal indoctrination talking, but I honestly don't see how someone could be fulfilled by spending their life mopping floors or flipping burgers.

I don't feel fulfilled by my office job. And interesting stuff happens here all the time.

But it doesn't feel noble.

Stofsk wrote:I think there's also a sense that you *have* to go to uni and get a degree and get a 'good' 'job', and the net effect of this is a lot of people get degrees which don't really matter to the jobs they go for or don't prepare them for whatever career they embark upon. Or in the worst case scenario, the degree is not only massively useless but also results in a considerable amount of debt.

Meanwhile the trades get less and less people into them which means supply/demand make relatively simple jobs command high prices and people wonder 'why the fuck did i waste years of my life and even more years paying off a debt when I could have just learnt how to be a tradie and fucking not owe a cent to anyone'. Not that I'm bitter or anything. I'm sure my lit major can do something. Somehow.

And here I believed I was the only one who thought these heretical thoughts about the overvaluation placed upon higher education by just about everybody.

Stofsk you are my hero.

I've always maintained that if the job description does not specify the focus of a degree, but just says that any ol' bachelor's degree will do, maybe that job doesn't really require someone college educated to do it?

Of course as we all know high school diplomas aren't worth the paper they're printed on, but maybe we could try changing that rather than shoving everyone possible through college? But then they wouldn't get as much tuition money so fuck that noise.

Darksi4190 wrote:maybe this is just societal indoctrination talking, but I honestly don't see how someone could be fulfilled by spending their life mopping floors or flipping burgers.

Well those types of jobs are probably not a career, no. But does that mean they should get shit wages and be looked down upon by others and be a job that good people just wouldn't do? (Unless you're a high school kid looking for part time work flipping burgers; that gets a pass)

But there's more to manual labor than janitors and fast food. How many schools actually offer up the trades as a viable choice after graduation in place of COLLEGE COLLEGE COLLEGE YOU'RE A FAILURE WITHOUT COLLEGE?

guys the cbs evening propaganda just told me THE DOW JONES HAS REACHED AN ALL TIME HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!

There's a life outside work. Culture, family, friends...

As long as your job pay enough for you to live a decent life and you don't kill yourself working, even the lowliest of job shouldn't get in the way of living a fulfilling life.

We've been saying for years now in my family that the focus put on higher studies and the low perception we have of manual labour in our society is bullshit. And both my parents were research engineers.

We need everyone to keep that big machine that is our modern world running, and everyone is glad that we have janitors and street cleaners.

I personally am one in favor of minimum wages being severely raised in my Country : at 35 hours worked a week, the minimum wage is around €1,100 a month before taxes.

Darksi4190 wrote:maybe this is just societal indoctrination talking, but I honestly don't see how someone could be fulfilled by spending their life mopping floors or flipping burgers.

Then again I suspect a lot of people with "better" jobs don't really feel fulfilled by them either. It's something you do so you can get money, not necessarily the point of your existence.

Speaking personally, my main ambition in life is to be comfortable and happy and able to write my fiction and know people read and appreciate it. Whatever my "real job" is is kind of just an enabler for that, and I don't think I particularly care about what it is as long as it isn't something I find highly unpleasant. I suspect a lot of people if they think about it will tell you they value being alive for their family and hobbies and stuff not so much their job.

The idea that the source of fulfillment in your life should be your job is one of those memes in our culture I think is rather insane and probably not really mentally healthy for people.

Oxymoron wrote:We've been saying for years now in my family that the focus put on higher studies and the low perception we have of manual labour in our society is bullshit. And both my parents were research engineers.

We need everyone to keep that big machine that is our modern world running, and everyone is glad that we have janitors and street cleaners.

I personally am one in favor of minimum wages being severely raised in my Country : at 35 hours worked a week, the minimum wage is around €1,100 a month before taxes.

I think Obama was making some noise about raising the federal minimum wage to 9$ an hour, which I would definitely approve of, as it would basically solve all of my current economic woes.

Of course if the minimum wage went up, prices would have to go up as well, so I might not be any better off.

I wonder how much of the prices in stuff actually goes to minimum wage labor and how much goes to equipment/shipping/profit margin/etc.?

Prices always go up and never down anyway, so raising salaries in general would allow people to be able to reduce their level of debts, increase their savings and/or spend more.

But we can't have that because, you know, increasing salaries by 25% will COMPLETELY kill how COMPETITIVE we are on the WORLD MARKET, and our jobs are going to get stolen by the ROMANIAN and CHINESE.

Depends on the products in question, but as far as products like vegetables, milk & co. go, not even half the price goes to the producer, most of the time less than that, the rest is the margin of all the different intermediaries in the LONG distribution chain.

The research I've seen indicates that raising the minimum wage up by as much as the Obama proposal would raise prices probably up to about 3%. Not nice for those who don't get the wages but it's just a few years' of inflation, really.

Infinity Biscuit wrote:The research I've seen indicates that raising the minimum wage up by as much as the Obama proposal would raise prices probably up to about 3%. Not nice for those who don't get the wages but it's just a few years' of inflation, really.

My point exactly : the social benefits far outweigh the negatives.

On the work/study tip I often wish I'd learned a trade. Work outside, manual labour to keep fit, actually have a genuine fucking portable skill.

weemadando wrote:On the work/study tip I often wish I'd learned a trade. Work outside, manual labour to keep fit, actually have a genuine fucking portable skill.

I'm currently doing a Cert IV in Business in one of those not-TAFE institutes and I now know what the French mean when they say hell is other people

I am giving serious thought to doing anything else, but my biggest problem? I don't know WHAT.

Stofsk wrote:

weemadando wrote:On the work/study tip I often wish I'd learned a trade. Work outside, manual labour to keep fit, actually have a genuine fucking portable skill.

I'm currently doing a Cert IV in Business in one of those not-TAFE institutes and I now know what the French mean when they say hell is other people

I am giving serious thought to doing anything else, but my biggest problem? I don't know WHAT.

You can help manage Anders's RPG/tabletop gaming shop that I am going to bankroll with my inevitable powerball win

And we will all be so, so happy

fuck yes

It spins me out that Ando is actually a professional writer/game designer. Big ups to him

Oxymoron wrote:Prices always go up and never down anyway, so raising salaries in general would allow people to be able to reduce their level of debts, increase their savings and/or spend more.

But we can't have that because, you know, increasing salaries by 25% will COMPLETELY kill how COMPETITIVE we are on the WORLD MARKET, and our jobs are going to get stolen by the ROMANIAN and CHINESE.

You forgot the executives running the business. They're clearly the exception.

Glass Fort MacLeod wrote:You forgot the executives running the business. They're clearly the exception.

The job creators.

Stofsk wrote:fuck yes

It spins me out that Ando is actually a professional writer/game designer. Big ups to him

For the loosest definition of professional. And definitely not by the ATOs definition.

For now.

Jung wrote:

Glass Fort MacLeod wrote:You forgot the executives running the business. They're clearly the exception.

The job creators.

The wealth just.. trickles down.

Or is that sewage? I can't tell.

weemadando wrote:For the loosest definition of professional. And definitely not by the ATOs definition.

For now.

Yeah if Swannie asks, I'm not a musician on the side.