New Testingstan

I think there's a difference between "I am not attracted to people who are visually distinct from the cisgendered, i.e. who do not look like 'typical' women or men" and "I am not attracted to people who are transgendered regardless of their appearance, even if they look like supermodels". The first one, to be brutally honest, is more akin to saying, "I am not attracted to women or men who are not conventionally attractive." Hardly the stuff of moral outrage. The second one sounds a lot more like bigotry to me.

So, IB, ae you suggesting people are cissexist trash for both or just the second one?

I'm not sure how much people are actually looking at my tumblr that this came from but to cut out even that middleman I'll just link straight to lookatthisfuckingcisgender whom I was reblogging from

Since that link will shift as time passes I'll also link the relevant posts in chronological order:
http://lookatthisfuckingcisgender.tumbl ... e-jobhaver
http://lookatthisfuckingcisgender.tumbl ... -attracted
http://lookatthisfuckingcisgender.tumbl ... g-as-trans
http://lookatthisfuckingcisgender.tumbl ... people-you
http://lookatthisfuckingcisgender.tumbl ... s-response
http://lookatthisfuckingcisgender.tumbl ... t-they-are
http://lookatthisfuckingcisgender.tumbl ... e-genitals

There ok now that's all out there for everyone :L Please read them before you respond to this post or about the subject more so we're all on the same page

Ok I'll address a few points here directly

I can hardly thinking of a clearer example of stating things in terms of people being bad than calling them "cissexist piece of trash"

tumblr is an awful place full of stupid hyperbole

In here I'm trying to discuss it on a more objective level. However, that tumblr is run by trans people for trans people as a space to call out bigotry without worrying about the feelings of cis people. I don't think it's anyone's place except maybe other trans people to try to attack their tone.

If we can bring it back to what I'm saying here, though, if we remove it from "you're a bad person" to "this is a problematic preference", is that something people can at least agree on here?

I just think it's an odd thing to say while simultaneously supporting the bigoted comment that someone who isn't attracted to transgenders is a cissexual piece of trash.

How on earth is it bigoted to call out a privileged person's bigotry?

But the core of this all is, if you'd be attracted to a person except for the fact that they're trans, not anything about their personality or appearance or whatever but because they are trans, how is it hard to understand that this is a manifestation of transphobia? It's especially bad if you just categorically state it as a fact rather than it being something you notice, because then it's not just an unconscious thing but a conscious and accepted part of who you are.

Also apologies if this post kind of gets disjointed I took a break halfway through to go gush about Titans :L

Thank you for the links.

Am I correct in stating that it would be transphobia to say, "I am not attracted to trans people, ever, period." But not being attracted to a particular transperson for whatever nebulous reasons you have for not being attracted to a person is not.

To carry it further, would you say a straight male not being attracted to, say, a pre-GRS transwoman who might still possess some masculine physical features might be fair, because such a person would not be attracted to people with those features (such as they might not be attracted to a ciswoman who has strongly defined arm muscles, let's say).

But a transwoman who has at least had the facial surgery and breast implants and so on done so that, physically and with clothes on there's no real visual difference between them and a ciswoman, well no reason to find them inherently unattractive is there? Sure any individual person may not be attractive to you, but as a category it'd be like saying you never ever find, I dunno, black or latino women attractive. For all you know you have found transwomen attractive but never knew it because there was no way to tell when passing by in your daily life.

Is that about right IB?

That's about right, Rogue.

I guess it bears pointing out that the original post that spawned all of this was about bisexual people, for whom neither masculinity nor femininity should be innately a turnoff, who declare themselves unattracted to trans people. However it also applies to monosexual people who are attracted to masculine/feminine cis people but not masculine/feminine trans people.

Also, it's preferable to write it as trans/cis women/men/people/etc not transwomen cismen and so on

Also in general I'd prefer to be called Biscuit or Charlotte or whatever since "IB" keeps making me think of the exams :L

Infinity Biscuit wrote:I guess it bears pointing out that the original post that spawned all of this was about bisexual people, for whom neither masculinity nor femininity should be innately a turnoff, who declare themselves unattracted to trans people.

Agreed there.

However it also applies to monosexual people who are attracted to masculine/feminine cis people but not masculine/feminine trans people.

Yeah. The issue I'd see there is when the clothes come off and that would make things rather complicated, I'd think (for non GRS persons, anyway). TBH I'm not sure how I'd feel if it happened to me and I didn't know beforehand. I wouldn't get violent or anything but I might lose my libido if there was suddenly a penis.

Also, it's preferable to write it as trans/cis women/men/people/etc not transwomen cismen and so on

Didn't know that, I'll try to keep it in mind.

Also in general I'd prefer to be called Biscuit or Charlotte or whatever since "IB" keeps making me think of the exams :L

Noted, though I can't make any promises: the desire to use acronyms runs strong in my brain.

IB ? Exams ?

What exams possess this acronym ?

International Baccalaureate exams. I know of them in the context of tests you take in high school to get credit for university.

Infinity Biscuit wrote:If we can bring it back to what I'm saying here, though, if we remove it from "you're a bad person" to "this is a problematic preference", is that something people can at least agree on here?

Yeah, here's my issue with the statement:

I can very easily see people not being consciously bigoted against trans people, but still having issues having sex with them because they were raised in a transphobic and homophobic society and that stuff has an effect on the mind that doesn't just disappear the instant they adopt conscious progressive beliefs. Yeah, maybe that's not a good thing, but sex is such a personal thing I'm uncomfortable with condemning people for something like that, treating it as a character flaw they need to correct or they're deficient people.

It's like ... if somebody had homosexual desires, but didn't want to have sex with people of the same sex, would you be comfortable with somebody calling them a homophobic piece of trash for that?

But the core of this all is, if you'd be attracted to a person except for the fact that they're trans, not anything about their personality or appearance or whatever but because they are trans, how is it hard to understand that this is a manifestation of transphobia?

It probably is, but ... well, let me go back to the earlier comparison:

If a woman has desires for other women but doesn't want to have sex with them you might suggest this is because of internalized homophobia and might be something she'd want to examine...
But I'm guessing you wouldn't be comfortable with calling her a "homophobic piece of trash"?

Infinity Biscuit wrote:I guess it bears pointing out that the original post that spawned all of this was about bisexual people, for whom neither masculinity nor femininity should be innately a turnoff, who declare themselves unattracted to trans people. However it also applies to monosexual people who are attracted to masculine/feminine cis people but not masculine/feminine trans people.

Note here that there is a huge gap between self-identified LGBT people and the percent of women at least one study indicates has homosexual desires. A lot of people's "straightness" may be the product of upbringing in a homophobic culture.

Which is part of what makes me uncomfortable with treating lack of attraction as a character flaw. I get the feeling it's kind of based in biological determinist ideas about how sexuality works combined with an idea that if it isn't a biologically determined orientation it's something it's reasonable to expect you to change.

I'm busy atm so I'll get back to you Jung when I can read your posts

I just stopped by for this

hello I am five

what

entered my name.

gave me a 20cm long boomerang shaped penis.

I question their data samples and methodology.

Jung wrote:I can very easily see people not being consciously bigoted against trans people, but still having issues having sex with them because they were raised in a transphobic and homophobic society and that stuff has an effect on the mind that doesn't just disappear the instant they adopt conscious progressive beliefs. Yeah, maybe that's not a good thing, but sex is such a personal thing I'm uncomfortable with condemning people for something like that, treating it as a character flaw they need to correct or they're deficient people.

Most bigotries are just stuff people absorb subconsciously from society. However, they still can't be addressed unless they're called out. Even people firmly in social justice movements always have more to improve about themselves. As with all of this stuff, though, the only way I make a moral condemnation of them as a person (rather than of their actions or statements) is if they refuse to address or accept the issues, not that they have them to begin with.

If a woman has desires for other women but doesn't want to have sex with them you might suggest this is because of internalized homophobia and might be something she'd want to examine...
But I'm guessing you wouldn't be comfortable with calling her a "homophobic piece of trash"?

A more accurate analogy would be to have a woman who has homosexual desires but declares that all lesbians are unattractive to her or something. That there would be a great example of internalised homophobic bigotry influencing her desires. I mean, it may be more clear: what about a lesbian would be less attractive? There's probably not an actual answer there unless you buy into stereotypes, which is the core thing here.

Declaring [oppressed group] unattractive as a whole... well here's another tumblr link :L

"lmfao yes saying u wouldnt date a person of a certain race is fucking racist youre writing off millions of people who are incredibly varied in appearances and personalities because you think theyre all a Certain Way this is like the basic definition of racism are you paying attention"

Oxymoron wrote:entered my name.

gave me a 20cm long boomerang shaped penis.

I question their data samples and methodology.

It's the naming I wonder about. Apparently I'm the proud owner of a 'rythmical estrous guppy'.

what the shit is going on
BBC news is doing the most banal tupping 15-minute report on Breaking Bad, I guess because that's what all the pointless media muppets are watching

I suppose the penis' characteristic are determined through a hash of the entered names into a series of numerical values.

At least it isn't case-sensitive

"The Reasonable Mature Maternity Sword"

the dataset is also biased towards hilarious needledicks, or else things are mistranslated and circumference is supposed to read radius

The comparison had to be done: http://en.inkei.net/Kefka!Sephiroth

lol @ "Ability : 49% (Cloud only)"

And in case you were wondering: http://en.inkei.net/Cloud!Sephiroth

Also Barack Obama has a very big penis, apparently.

Let's just say you could almost buy it for $5 at Subway.

Infinity Biscuit wrote:As with all of this stuff, though, the only way I make a moral condemnation of them as a person (rather than of their actions or statements) is if they refuse to address or accept the issues, not that they have them to begin with.

I don't disagree with that but that doesn't seem like what the thing you quoted is advocating. It outright calls people who don't want to have sex with trans people trash. It's on its face blatantly judging them as bad people because they have these preferences.

THE REFINED JUSTICE COBRA
George Walker Bush's Penis

What do I make of this?

My dick is MEGA SATAN

29cm long and as big around as an arm

aw yee

I don't disagree with that but that doesn't seem like what the thing you quoted is advocating. It outright calls people who don't want to have sex with trans people trash. It's on its face blatantly judging them as bad people because they have these preferences.

Again: that tumblr is run by trans people for trans people as a space to call out bigotry without worrying about the feelings of cis people. I don't think it's anyone's place except maybe other trans people to try to attack their tone.

Infinity Biscuit wrote:Again: that tumblr is run by trans people for trans people as a space to call out bigotry without worrying about the feelings of cis people. I don't think it's anyone's place except maybe other trans people to try to attack their tone.

Saying that having these preferences makes you a bad person vs. saying it doesn't is more than a matter of "tone." It's a substantive difference.

My first name was reputable

My middle name was well below average