Zod wrote:My biggest complaint with the new DMC was that the original Dante re-design made him look like an emaciated meth user. Thankfully they fixed that soon enough and I'm actually looking forward to picking it up.
Yeah, my initial complaint was that it looked like they'd be going the DMC2 route with a more emo version of dark-broody Dante, but as time went on, it proved to be unfounded. Speaking of, early in the game there's a rather blatant 'fuck you' to the 'Classic Dante or No Dante' fantwits.
Edit: And if you can stomach it, the comments pretty much illustrate the hilarious fan-rage I was talking about.
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:05 pm
by RyanThunder
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:37 pm
by F.J. Prefect, Esq
Djinnkitty83 wrote:I've seen this complaint pop up before and it makes me laugh every time, because it shows the complainer either only watched that cutscene in isolation with no context... or they didn't, don't care about the context, and are just looking for things to complain about.
1) The 'baby' he aborted wasn't a human baby. It was a fifteen foot tall demonspawn with three arms and five eyes that literally kicked its way out of Lilith's womb in its bloodlust to kill Dante, that only went back in after being beaten down... and in fact was the boss you fought directly before this cutscene.
2) The mother wasn't a human mother. From the beginning of the game, in every scene she appears, Lilith is shown as an inhuman monster wearing a poorly-fitting human skin-bag that she has to constantly adjust.
3) I've watched the scene a few times and, to me, it looks like Vergil is just as surprised as everyone else that he took the shot. I'd say that moment actually represented the point where Vergil finally accepted he was willing to kill anyone or do anything to ensure his own rise to power.
What a load of crap. The game goes out of its way to try and present Vergil in a vaguely positive light (because it's trying to establish a similar relationship between the brothers to that in DMC3) and here he is, smiling to himself as he lets the impromptu abortion sink in for Lilith before executing her. Oh no they're demons! Big fucking deal. Does that really change the moral culpability for gruesomely executing a prisoner?
And how does this even ensure his 'rise to power' anyway? Like what is he actually achieving here, again? Like it made Mundus feel bad I guess, but isn't Kat an asset in the resistance? Why would he risk her life like this? Is he just stupid? I'm not even going to get into how flimsy his whole transition to would-be ruler of the world is. Like just a few hours previously he was talking about the size of his penis relative to Dante's.
The reality is that Ninja Theory just put it in because they thought it would make Vergil look 'badass'. It reminds of how the writer on Enslaved commented on how Ninja Theory wanted to have Monkey just randomly kill a fellow prisoner at the beginning of the game.
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:44 pm
by F.J. Prefect, Esq
Djinnkitty83 wrote:Speaking of, early in the game there's a rather blatant 'fuck you' to the 'Classic Dante or No Dante' fantwits.
What makes it really funny is that his hair turns white later in the game anyway
So it was basically only in there to make the developers feel good and make their consumer base mad
Why? Who knows! So edgy!
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:10 pm
by Djinnkitty83
F.J. Prefect, Esq wrote:What a load of crap. The game goes out of its way to try and present Vergil in a vaguely positive light (because it's trying to establish a similar relationship between the brothers to that in DMC3) and here he is, smiling to himself as he lets the impromptu abortion sink in for Lilith before executing her. Oh no they're demons! Big fucking deal. Does that really change the moral culpability for gruesomely executing a prisoner?
Umm... are we playing the same game at all? Did you not notice how, by the end of the game, Vergil turns out to be the bad-guy, who views humans as expendable tools so long as his particular vision of the 'greater good' is achieved? Perhaps, and I'm really straining here, but maybe just perhaps the whole impromptu abortion is a big red-flag that Vergil isn't quite the good guy after all?
And again, multiple interpretations: You see it as him smiling to himself and letting it sink in. I see it as him being momentarily shocked over what he just did, and mentally crossing the point of no return.
And how does this even ensure his 'rise to power' anyway? Like what is he actually achieving here, again? Like it made Mundus feel bad I guess, but isn't Kat an asset in the resistance? Why would he risk her life like this? Is he just stupid? I'm not even going to get into how flimsy his whole transition to would-be ruler of the world is. Like just a few hours previously he was talking about the size of his penis relative to Dante's.
You weren't paying attention to anything aside from the hostage-scene, were you? Vergil wanted to kill Lilith and the baby from the start because he knew it would bring out Mundus and give them the opening they need to take him out. And you know what, it worked!
As for Kat: Again, it's almost as if Vergil's not the goodguy here, and his flaw was vastly underestimating her utility and viewing her as a lost asset as soon as she was caught. Even at the end of the game, Dante has to go point-by-point to show that Kat had more of an impact than Vergil thought. EDIT: Hell, this is actually a good nod to one of the few character traits Vergil showed in DMC3. Arkham pointed out that Vergil fell into his plot because he underestimated humans.
And as far as his transition into rule goes... umm, not only is the world on the verge of descending into complete chaos, but Vergil probably knows more than anyone else about Mundus' power structure, both terrestrial and supernatural, and how to best pick up the pieces after taking out the head. But hey, he couldn't possibly do that because he made an offhand penis-joke to his brother, and professional people are all robots who never engage in any sort of banter
The reality is that Ninja Theory just put it in because they thought it would make Vergil look 'badass'. It reminds of how the writer on Enslaved commented on how Ninja Theory wanted to have Monkey just randomly kill a fellow prisoner at the beginning of the game.
Of course, that's why when Dante asked him what the hell he thought he was doing, Vergil replies with, "I had to" while still looking a little shocked. Oh, and I'll point out again how he was right, this was the action that drew Mundus away from his invulnerability macguffin!
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:13 pm
by Djinnkitty83
Djinnkitty83 wrote:Speaking of, early in the game there's a rather blatant 'fuck you' to the 'Classic Dante or No Dante' fantwits.
What makes it really funny is that his hair turns white later in the game anyway
So it was basically only in there to make the developers feel good and make their consumer base mad
Why? Who knows! So edgy!
That's funny, some of the more vitriolic comments in the youtube video were saying the exact same thing.
See, here's the thing, the only ones getting mad are the fantwits. The problem is that the fantwits tend to have a bad case of projectionism, so they assume that their opinions represent the opinions of the entirety of the fanbase, which simply isn't true. So for this little easter egg, the reactions I've seen range from, "Heh, that's funny," and "Nice nod to the original", then at the far end you have, "WAY TO PISS ALL OVER THE FANS, NINJA THEORY, ENJOY GOING DOWN IN FLAMES!!1!"
Don't you realize that this ridiculous tribalism and easily goaded rage might be part of the reason they put in these little pokes? Not only that, but if a couple seconds of New Dante in Old Dante's wig provokes another ragesplosion, people who'd never really heard of the franchise before might catch an interest, see what all the fuss is about, and possibly increase sales even more?
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:28 pm
by F.J. Prefect, Esq
Djinnkitty83 wrote:Umm... are we playing the same game at all? Did you not notice how, by the end of the game, Vergil turns out to be the bad-guy, who views humans as expendable tools so long as his particular vision of the 'greater good' is achieved? Perhaps, and I'm really straining here, but maybe just perhaps the whole impromptu abortion is a big red-flag that Vergil isn't quite the good guy after all?
If I have to make it explicit I will: he's a shit character. Nothing about his arc, what little arc he has, follows in any narratively logical or narratively interesting way. He's the same childish douchebag as Dante, and then suddenly he's Satan for ... some reason. Like he is established in a certain way by Kat's dialogue, and his (absurdly bad) interactions with Dante, then he just flips to baby murder in precisely one second.
Like remember how in DMC3 the entire game was about Vergil's psychology relative to Dante and he was consistently characterised in respect of his actions? Compare and contrast.
Djinnkitty83 wrote:That's funny, some of the more vitriolic comments in the youtube video were saying the exact same thing.
I actually think it's funnier how fans of DmC go out of their way to attempt to represent critique of the game or of the actions of the developer as 'tribalism'. It's a perfectly valid criticism. If I'd seen the wig scene way back at the beginning of the cycle I would have gotten a laugh out of it, but with more experience of the game it's just emblematic of Ninja Theory's childish, churlish approach to the existing property.
Like you'd think, just maybe, that they'd be slightly more aware of the fact that they have been gifted their first game that will break one million sales.
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:51 pm
by Djinnkitty83
F.J. Prefect, Esq wrote:If I have to make it explicit I will: he's a shit character. Nothing about his arc, what little arc he has, follows in any narratively logical or narratively interesting way. He's the same childish douchebag as Dante, and then suddenly he's Satan for ... some reason. Like he is established in a certain way by Kat's dialogue, and his (absurdly bad) interactions with Dante, then he just flips to baby murder in precisely one second.
Like remember how in DMC3 the entire game was about Vergil's psychology relative to Dante and he was consistently characterised in respect of his actions? Compare and contrast.
The only part I agree with is the abruptness of the final fight. I said from the beginning the story was not the greatest, only that it compared favourably relative to other DMC games, and his casual dropping of 'let's rule the world now' reeks of forcing the last battle and could have been handled better.
However, he shows just as much, if not more character development in DmC than he does in DMC3. Kat looked up to him because he saved her (or at least taught her to save herself) from a demon that was quite possibly raping her. But even then, she points out that he sees her, and her ability to interact with Limbo, as a valuable intelligence-gathering asset. Kat was initially caught because Vergil insisted on her staying and protecting the data they gathered rather than running. The only reason the hostage-exchange took place was because Dante refused to let Vergil just abandon her to Mundus, which he was completely ready to do and said as much.
Pretty much as soon as you start delving into his character, it's fucking hammered into your head that Vergil's opinion on humanity is that they are lesser than beings like he and Dante, that at best he'll rule over them to protect them 'from themselves', and that he'll choose Dante's life over any individual human's life.
Compare and contrast. In DMC3, Vergil wants power and discounts humans. There is some family loyalty and hints at past feelings of inadequacy ("Without power you cannot defend anything, least of all yourself"), but aside from that, nothing is really revealed about who he is.
Djinnkitty83 wrote:That's funny, some of the more vitriolic comments in the youtube video were saying the exact same thing.
I actually think it's funnier how fans of DmC go out of their way to attempt to represent critique of the game or of the actions of the developer as 'tribalism'. It's a perfectly valid criticism. If I'd seen the wig scene way back at the beginning of the cycle I would have gotten a laugh out of it, but with more experience of the game it's just emblematic of Ninja Theory's childish, churlish approach to the existing property.
Like you'd think, just maybe, that they'd be slightly more aware of the fact that they have been gifted their first game that will break one million sales.
Compare and contrast:
I think the wig scene is a humourous nod to the original. The fact that his hair's already heading that direction by the end of the game shows that it's not serious in the slightest.
You think the wig scene is insulting and a slap in the face to fans of the original.
So which one of us is taking this personally again?
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:01 pm
by evilsoup
fight fight fight fight
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:40 pm
by F.J. Prefect, Esq
Djinnkitty83 wrote:The only part I agree with is the abruptness of the final fight. I said from the beginning the story was not the greatest, only that it compared favourably relative to other DMC games, and his casual dropping of 'let's rule the world now' reeks of forcing the last battle and could have been handled better.
Given that the final fight is, you know, the climax of the whole game, the fact that it is so poorly mishandled speaks to the wider malaise in the writing. Like you say it has a better story than previous games, but what IS the story of DmC? In Devil May Cry the story is about Dante finishing the job started by his father. In DMC3 the story is about Dante learning to embrace the part of his heritage that he is afraid of (and in fact 'confronting our heritage' is consistent across Dante, Vergil and Lady). DMC4 is about Nero discarding the pretensions of a society that has long since rejected him and just doing what he wants to do.
If you're talking about the plots of the previous games then I might be more inclined to agree, because they were mostly just excuses to go to a place and chop up some demons. DMC4 had a more involved plot regarding a conspiracy but its truncated development clearly cut out a lot of that. But what actually makes DmC better written? I will admit that cribbing the plot of They Live is cool, but all that actually amounted to was incredibly trite fake social commentary for the aesthetic. There's nothing inspired there. Oh shit it's BILL O'REILLY and he's talking about TERRORISTS tee hee. Mundus is like 'I rule the world with debt' oh my could this be a reference to the current economic crisis???? So is it the script? It has less cheesy as hell one liners, but it's replaced by an almost literal dick measurement contest. And what few good jokes they have are overplayed - like Dante punching the bouncer out and writing 'fuck you' on the list. That was actually a good use of the crass tone, but they just had to have Dante drawl out 'that's my name' because he's such an edgy punk. Where's the comedic timing on that? Nowhere. Let's not even get into all the clumsy exposition.
Djinnkitty83 wrote:You think the wig scene is insulting and a slap in the face to fans of the original.
Actually I think it's a poor business decision made by a studio with a history of poor business decisions.
And this is why "We the people" is a joke, ladies and germs.
It's also why gamers (collectively) are made into jokes. People stereotype all gamers as the kind of person who would submit this petition. If fewer gamers would re-inforce that stereotype, that would be good, too.
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:36 am
by Djinnkitty83
F.J. Prefect, Esq wrote:
Djinnkitty83 wrote:The only part I agree with is the abruptness of the final fight. I said from the beginning the story was not the greatest, only that it compared favourably relative to other DMC games, and his casual dropping of 'let's rule the world now' reeks of forcing the last battle and could have been handled better.
Given that the final fight is, you know, the climax of the whole game, the fact that it is so poorly mishandled speaks to the wider malaise in the writing. Like you say it has a better story than previous games, but what IS the story of DmC? In Devil May Cry the story is about Dante finishing the job started by his father. In DMC3 the story is about Dante learning to embrace the part of his heritage that he is afraid of (and in fact 'confronting our heritage' is consistent across Dante, Vergil and Lady). DMC4 is about Nero discarding the pretensions of a society that has long since rejected him and just doing what he wants to do.
In DmC, the story is Dante learning of his heritage, being extorted to give a shit about something other than himself, taking responsibility for the power he has and actually using it to pursue an ideal of humanity being free from demonic control. Like I said before, nothing truly spectacular, but in my opinion it's still better than the rest because (with exception of DMC4, which I'm not a big fan of for other reasons) Dante actually interacts with the humans he's sworn to protect fairly regularly throughout the game, and changes his opinion and outlook on things by the end of the game. The Vergil fight was abrupt in the sense that Vergil went from "We're best bros, dude," to, "Out of my way or I'll kill you," in less than a minute, but aside from that the lead-up in establishing that his views on humanity differed quite a bit from Dante's was quite believable.
If you're talking about the plots of the previous games then I might be more inclined to agree, because they were mostly just excuses to go to a place and chop up some demons. DMC4 had a more involved plot regarding a conspiracy but its truncated development clearly cut out a lot of that.
I thought I'd made it clear from the start that, by itself, DmC is at best slightly above average, but to me it's a cut above when compared to the other games. If not, I'll say it again here: When I say it's good, I'm speaking in relation to the other games in the franchise.
But what actually makes DmC better written? <snip various things>
Because as corny and uninspired as all those things are, there's still arguably more effort put into making them actual motivations. In DMC, Mundus is evil and possibly wants to rule the world because... he's evil. In DmC, Mundus already practically rules the world, and the implication is that human souls are tasty food to powerful devils, so he's turned the place into a giant cattle farm.
I can agree that Dante's performance left a little something to be desired. His voice actor seemed tired, and a portion of his lines seemed dedicated to nothing more than stupidly repeating plot points. But aside from that, he's no worse, and in ways, better than previous incarnations.
Djinnkitty83 wrote:You think the wig scene is insulting and a slap in the face to fans of the original.
Actually I think it's a poor business decision made by a studio with a history of poor business decisions.
Well, we'll see whose prediction turns out right with the sales figures come in. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it then.
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:57 am
by joviwan
I haven't sunk my teeth into DmC yet, just got started basically.
What I did just do was beat Far Cry 3.
tl;dr
what the fuck
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:00 am
by Djinnkitty83
A little more elaboration: I'd say DmC hovers around DMC3 in terms of quality, though for different reasons. DMC1 really wasn't that good of a game, but had enough neat things going for it that it gathered a following. DMC2... doesn't exist. DMC3 pretty much set the standard to beat. DMC4 may or may not have been incredible if it were actually properly finished, we'll never know. As it is I didn't enjoy the story very much, found Nero uncompelling, Kyrie a completely empty damsel-in-distress, and the combat was give and take, where the Devil Bringer was really fun, trying to charge the Red Queen while your style-meter quickly drained was just annoying.
Something interesting Rhi and I were discussing regarding DmC though: As much of a dismissive, egocentric bastard he turned out to be, Vergil was in many ways right at the end of the game. Yeah, Mundus was dead. But the entire city was in flames, the sudden destruction of the entity that pretty much controlled the world's debt pretty much ensures there's going to be a global economic crash, the majority of humanity has suddenly been cut off from its demon-drugged, mind-numbing drinks, which will lead to widespread turmoil as swathes of people all over the place start going into whatever withdrawal-symptoms or side-effects that come with going cold turkey off this drug. All of this will be a lot harder to deal with since network of CCTV cameras Mundus was using to help keep people cowed and under control is now also destroyed. And on top of everything else, Limbo's merged with the real world and suddenly demons are popping up all over the place and attacking people.
In short: There is likely global chaos and anarchy going on in the wake of the sudden death of the entity that had carefully arranged the world to revolve around him.
In the short run, a single strong leader with access to/ knowledge of Mundus' power network could probably do far more for helping humanity rebuild, and prevent massive death from poverty, disease, demons, and anarchic rioting, then waiting for a shell-shocked humanity to try and organize itself. Dante could have done his own part, allowing Vergil to take the reigns of actually rebuilding, but also acting as a humanist connection to make sure Vergil doesn't get out of hand with his ends-justifying-the-means method of operation.
And it brought up an interesting theory: The two universes are actually connected. Dante ended Vergil's ambitions to rule, and because of his more freedom-centric, hands-off approach, humanity suffered a massive die back from the economic collapse, Virility withdrawal symptoms, and general demon attacks. That's why, in the older games, the world seems to consist of crumbling cities with little to no people in them... or in the case of DMC4, isolated, self-sufficient communities that worship superhuman protectors.
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:09 pm
by Zablorg
I've been playing The Walking Dead, and I've finished the second episode, which has some pretty masterfully crafted moments. like damn
it's also doing a good job of making me feel emotionally exhausted with the apocalypse. nothing is going my way
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:35 pm
by Losonti Tokash
never look at salt licks the same way again
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:49 pm
by Flagg
Episode 3 for me was the most brutal emotionally.
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:22 am
by weemadando
Fucking episode 3 killed me. And then the attic in 4.
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:36 am
by Zablorg
so i finished the whole thing, it was very very good
what i thought was interesting was that after episode 2 i sort of emotionally disengaged from the rest of the group and was only interested in caring for Clem
so for instance i found episode 3 to be relatively pleasant because she was more or less doing fine
Re: generic vidja gaems
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:53 pm
by Agent Bert Macklin
Aaron, what's that war game that really got to you? Stark was raving about it a while back.
