New Testingstan

evilsoup wrote:are curfews a common thing in the USA?

For driving when it comes to the 16 and 17 year olds, I think they are. With the exceptions for going to/from work and stuff like that.

The only curfews I've ever seen of the "get off the streets!" variety are temporary ones, usually put in place after a hurricane or whatever that hits an area bad, which is basically don't be out after dark. Due to the lack of power, debris you may not be able to see, unreliable communications and tied up emergency services, etc.

Ugh...

September came early.

UGH. TOO HOT AT NIGHT.

This whole Syria thing is killing me.

We have atrocities being clearly committed.

Finally we have chemical weapons being used to kill civilians.

Nobody wants to do anything about it. They'll go to any lengths not to do anything about it.

What the fuck, West?

There is there is a desire to help civilians being hurt in this conflict.

There is also a very strong desire not to get involved in another Afganistan or Iraq or Libya. Some time regime change just doesn't help.

Also a lot of the anti-intervention response thus far has been along the lines of 'how about we just wait and see what the inspectors say'. you nkow so we're sure we know if chemical weapons were used and who by.

RyanThunder wrote:This whole Syria thing is killing me.

We have atrocities being clearly committed.

Finally we have chemical weapons being used to kill civilians.

Nobody wants to do anything about it. They'll go to any lengths not to do anything about it.

What the fuck, West?

Chemical weapons are being used on civilians, but nobody is sure who ordered their use.

Chemical weapons were used, but nobody knows where they are stored, so any bombardment of a military installation can potentially be a disaster.

Also, at this point, military intervention is more likely to make the situation worse than better, and that's before getting into the potential for retaliation by the regime on civilians or what the hell to do afterwards.

I see Syria as yet another damned if we do damned if we don't, with Western counties demonised by activist types no matter what they do (like with Indonesia's mass killings of Communists and tribal minorities or countless other similar miserable events happening throughout the Second/Third World for many decades).

Well tbh my main worry is that it's just the americans doing it

so I'm concerned that they're going to go in without any sort of plan and just blow shit up

unless they learned their lesson from Iraq/Afghanistan

one can only hope

oh, and then everybody will point at their repeated failures and use them as excuses not to do anything to stop shit like this from happening anywhere else ever

RyanThunder wrote:oh, and then everybody will point at their repeated failures and use them as excuses not to do anything to stop shit like this from happening anywhere else ever

That's what most sensible people were saying in 2003 when the Iraq war was being debated. And look where we are now.

Actually yeah you're right, it's already happening

remember there's more options than "do nothing whatsoever" and "bomb them"

you could try something that might actually help make things better

Powerful state governments should stop treating less fortunate countries and regions as giant chess boards.

Big Orangutan wrote:Powerful state governments should stop treating less fortunate countries and regions as giant chess boards.

oh how naive game theory enlightened self interest law of the jungle

You forgot realpolitik, loser.

Now I can't access SDN. Is there a hacker group targeting nerd forums or something?

shit they're on to me.........!

Big Orangutan wrote:Powerful state governments should stop treating less fortunate countries and regions as giant chess boards.

except this actually has very little to do with 'powerful state governments' and much more to do with the long term fight in the middle east between shia and sunni

adr wrote:remember there's more options than "do nothing whatsoever" and "bomb them"

you could try something that might actually help make things better

Like what, exactly? Bonus points if it actually works while they're shooting the shit out of each other

whoa so I didn't realise that while the UK was out FRANCE WAS IN

I hope the OBAMANATION makes a video of him fucking up that bust of Winston Churchill in the oval office and sends the queen like a billion iPods

Uhm, what ? Did I miss something important from the news ?

Does this mean they can go back to being French fries?

ryan thunder:

It depends what your goal is. If it is to punish chemical weapon use:

use the intel Kerry claims to have of individuals confessing on tapped phones to press criminal charges in the ICC. You might not be able to apprehend them immediately (tho maybe you could, perhaps Assad would see a lower level prosecution as a way to get out of deeper shit), but even if you can't an international criminal prosecution would send the message that chemical weapons are illegal.

If it's good enough for genocide cases, sometimes taking years to actually apprehend the person (if they don't get asylum in the US lol) it should at least be tried here too.


If it is to prevent future chem weapons use:

a) same as above

b) Propose to Assad and Russia some kind of international safekeeping or monitoring program - see if we can't get a Russian officer in the loop so the weapons can't be unlocked without both keys. He might not accept, though Russia might be paletable to him, and the Russians may able to flex their own muscle to change his mind.

Their public position is it won't be used except in the case of foreign WMD attack. OK, prove you mean it by accepting the deal.

If something like this goes in, we can have more confidence in the safeguarding of the weapons without having to bomb anyone - which btw puts their use at greater, not less, risk. Hell, what if a stray missile hits a chemical dump? What if the Syrian military just goes nuts and figures they have nothing else to lose?

c) Lead by example: stop using chemical weapons ourselves and start dismantling our nuke stockpile. Apologize for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Iraq, Gaza, Iran, and all the other times we willfully used or helped others use weapons of mass destruction.

d) Pay Syria to safely destroy their stockpiles.


If it is ending the civil war:

a) Cut off the arms supply. There was an international arms control treaty not too long ago that might have been a decent step in this direction and it had good support... but the US killed it. But, even short of that, we could lean on the Sauds and the Russians to cut off both sides. We could offer Iran sanctions relief or something to cut off their shipments. Get creative and use the various carrots and sticks we have laying around on all the various actors. All involved parties say they want a political solution: let's see if they'll follow up those words with actions.

They won't be shooting the shit out of each other for long if they run out of ammo.

b) Stop canceling talks and stop inserting /our/ preconditions into /their/ negotiations. Try to be fair and impartial - no more talk of regime change being a must, but at the same time, be willing to help the people reach compromises that avoids the need for future protests.

c) Be as inclusive as possible. Iran is an important player, don't shut them out anymore. If opposition groups want to elect their own delegates, great, let's hear from them - it shouldn't just be the representatives /we/ like at /their/ talks.

If it is to make the civil war hurt a little bit less:

a) Offer as much money, medical support, etc., as needed to the countries taking in refugees

b) Open our own borders to refugees - park some of those big ass US ships nearby to pick people up.



These things might not work. But unlike a bombing campaign, at least trying them won't actually /hurt/ (even if the bombs do their job - far from a given - there's guaranteed collateral damage), and if they do work, it is better than doing nothing.

I'd love to live in a world where any of that was possible.