New Testingstan

I'm not going to stop eating meat, that's a non starter. But thanks to Straha I'll be more aware of what I buy. Or we'll just go to hunting for meat. One or two deer (or a bear) is enough for a year for us. And at least I'll know it didn't stand in it's own shit or have it's beak lopped off.

One or two deer provide enough meat for a year for a family of four?

I didn't know there was that much edible meat on them.

Stopping entirely might be too much, but you might be amazed how easy it is to cut your consumption right in half. That still lets you have what you enjoy while helping yourself and the animals.

Then, maybe in a few months, you can try cutting in half again. But in any case even if you don't want to go entirely without, cutting back helps too.

So I decided to try my hand at some home brewing. I'm not a fan of beer or wine, so I made a batch of applejack, since I could make it with mostly local ingredients, especially since apples were in season when I started. Picked up a bunch of apple cider from the nearby farmer's market, so I just had to order the tannins and yeast and stuff.

I finished it up and bottled it all last week. Turned out pretty good. Got less than I was hoping due to the distilling - only about 2 gallons - but it looks like my first foray into brewing is a success.

I think for my next experiment I'm going to try something that's not distilled. The most obvious option, given my distaste for beer and wine, is mead. It'll be expensive as hell, but I should be able to make it with all locally produced clover honey.

Darksi4190 wrote:One or two deer provide enough meat for a year for a family of four?

I didn't know there was that much edible meat on them.

We don't eat that much meat, mostly vegetables and potatoes. We always half the portion of steak out of the package for example.

We'd have to move away from deer anyways because the number of tags available varies based on population.

Ever tried rabbit, Aaron? I heard somewhere that they're overpopulated. If I can verify that, maybe I'll try hunting/cleaning some myself.

If I can convince my sister to not eviscerate me for committing the horrible horrible crime of shooting fluffy things, that is.

Oddly no, it's way to expensive. I've also been banned for life from hunting rabbits by my daughter.

There are all kinds of pheasant, turkey, grouse and groundhog (on the fence about those) around here though. Incidently, there is no limit on rabbit.

You can come with me if you want. Go half on a deer or elk.

I don't think I could ever go off meat, but Straha is single-handedly the one mang who has come close to convincing me. At the very least I try to not eat meat all of the fucking time. There are quite a few vegie meals I've picked up that are awesome. (Red posted a few ages ago)

vegetarian chilli is the shit
vegetarian lasagna's pretty nice too

I don't live in my own household, so I eat what's on the table so to speak. And there's meat or fish at almost every meal. Though once I get to live in my own household I could give a try to the whole vegetarianism shtick.

... I tried it once, but I had to stop one month in because I was chronically tired (I'm naturally not very energetic to begin with).

You'll pry my McDonalds cheeseburger from my cold, dead hands.

RE: price of going vegan

I've heard the reason it's more expensive is that organic foods tend to be a lot more expensive and most people who go vegan also go organic? Though that could have changed as time goes on.

Also I don't buy that vegan is morally superior or whatever. I can understand being against factory farms and stuff like that, at least treat the animals as 'humanely' as one can for something destined to die for our consumption. But we're omnivores so I'm not going to feel bad about eating hamburger any more than a lion feels bad about eating a zebra.

my sop for my conscious about this sort of thing is; well say we stop eating animals and especially animal products. How long do you think chickens or cows or pigs are going to be around if we have no use for them at all?

Where I live, "organic" food cost less or the same for a better quality than equivalent "normal" food ; or if the price is higher it's around 10 to 40% more, and not double or triple the price.

"Organics" when bought at the local equivalent of Wal-Mart cost a bunch, but this has less to do with the production cost of organic food and more with that kind of store chains' commercial practices.

That's why as much as we can we buy our food in shops which specialize in "organics" products. The prices there are far more reasonable.

Well, personally I don't think I could go totally vegetarian, but I could tend to treat meat as a luxury, and not as something to eat everyday.

Crazedwraith wrote:my sop for my conscious about this sort of thing is; well say we stop eating animals and especially animal products. How long do you think chickens or cows or pigs are going to be around if we have no use for them at all?

Pigs are amazingly successful as a feral animal, though they'll wreck their immediate environment doing it.

Chickens will all die, they are dumb as dirt and can't fly.

Cows...probably get done in by coyote.

Oxymoron wrote:Well, personally I don't think I could go totally vegetarian, but I could tend to treat meat as a luxury, and not as something to eat everyday.

There's so much of it in Canada that it's actually ridiculous. Restaurants give you massive patties or steaks and even pasta dishes are loaded with it. I'm wondering now how much we produce VS how much we actually need.

We fed at least 50 people a couple years ago at the gun club summer party with a single roasted pig, potatoes, salad and some cookies.

So...

The reason I say that Straha is because when I go to the store and look at stuff labeled vegan it's almost always at least 150% the cost of comparable items. We drink almond milk and it's another dollar over cow milk for a half gallon. Granted a lot is because it's also organic, but that's how it is here and for most people I talk to.

if you're going to literally try and find a 1:1 replacement for everything, I can see how it would turn out more expensive.

Honestly, if someone is trying to go vegan and find 1:1 replacements, I usually view them as being destined for failure. If they are eating ground up mushrooms with some kind of heavily processed soy product not because they like it, but because they can't go that long without eating a cheeseburger, then most likely they are eventually going to give up and just start eating meat again.

i'm not talking about 1:1 replacements at all so

o m g

is this a navy ship on ncis la????? i didn't realize this show had anything to do with the navy!!!!!

edit: "and none of them have asked for a jag lawyer"... so defense lawyers DO exist in the ncis la world!

I walked past NCIS in the Pentagon today

I was going to take a photo but then didn't

the end

RyanThunder wrote:How do you feel about fish?

I'm against it.

A crux of my moral philosophy is the Butlerian concept of unintelligibility. To make a long story (one I'll gladly go into) very short, unintelligibility is the idea that the experiences and approaches that others take towards the world are fundamentally beyond anyone else's capacity for understanding. As such I feel fundamentally unable to make any sort of categorical exception to these rules based on the experiences/feelings of other beings because such an understanding is at best fictitious.

I also object, strongly, to the Benthamian idea that suffering is all that matters.

evilsoup wrote:on moral grounds, I know I really should become a vegan
but bacon is so delicious <--this is how I know Judaism etc is fake
what kind of a god would put something that delicious in the world, and then deny it to his chosen people?
not one I'd want to worship, that's for sure

Truefact: I have forgotten the taste of all meat. Except bacon. Almost all the vegans I know have the same sort of experience. The exceptions? Jews.

Funfact: A meat processing company made a device that could recognize meats by shooting a laser at them. They decided to give it a run with humans at a trade show (because they hadn't yet) so someone put their arm in front of it. Humans registered as Prosciutto. Human tastes like undercooked bacon.

Stofsk wrote:I don't think I could ever go off meat, but Straha is single-handedly the one mang who has come close to convincing me. At the very least I try to not eat meat all of the fucking time. There are quite a few vegie meals I've picked up that are awesome. (Red posted a few ages ago)

I keep meaning to post recipes. I'll post one for some delicious mushroom soup in a bit. Maybe later tonight. Because damn does that stuff make me a happy camper.

RogueIce wrote: Also I don't buy that vegan is morally superior or whatever. I can understand being against factory farms and stuff like that, at least treat the animals as 'humanely' as one can for something destined to die for our consumption. But we're omnivores so I'm not going to feel bad about eating hamburger any more than a lion feels bad about eating a zebra.

Yeah but the lion needs to kill the Zebra to survive. Humans don't. Our closest biological relatives are mostly frugivores who eat insects and certain meat sources occasionally but almost always as targets of opportunity and not as any sort of central part of their diet. There's also a compelling comparative digestive tract argument to be had, animals who have evolved to eat meat tend to have very short and efficient digestive tracts because they want to get rotting carcass out of the body as quickly as possible, while herbivores have longer digestive tracts to allow for the longer digestion needed to get vitamins out of plant matter. Human digestive tracts fall right in with the average ruminant (like deers) and are much, much, longer than any carnivorous animal.

Regardless, that still doesn't answer the question I asked Ryan before. If we don't have to, why ought we?

Losonti Tokash wrote:The reason I say that Straha is because when I go to the store and look at stuff labeled vegan it's almost always at least 150% the cost of comparable items. We drink almond milk and it's another dollar over cow milk for a half gallon. Granted a lot is because it's also organic, but that's how it is here and for most people I talk to.

Can you give examples? Because I'm honestly stumped about this because this is completely the opposite of every experience I have ever heard. Aside from aforementioned substitutes and certain pseudo-luxury items that I know some people eat as a sort of nutritional prophylactic (Avocado and quality olive oil come to mind) I just can't really see how that would occur. :-/

Straha wrote:
Yeah but the lion needs to kill the Zebra to survive. Humans don't. Our closest biological relatives are mostly frugivores who eat insects and certain meat sources occasionally but almost always as targets of opportunity and not as any sort of central part of their diet. There's also a compelling comparative digestive tract argument to be had, animals who have evolved to eat meat tend to have very short and efficient digestive tracts because they want to get rotting carcass out of the body as quickly as possible, while herbivores have longer digestive tracts to allow for the longer digestion needed to get vitamins out of plant matter. Human digestive tracts fall right in with the average ruminant (like deers) and are much, much, longer than any carnivorous animal.

Point of order on the biology. I believe you are being misleading on the matter of the gut.

The human digestive tract is a point of divergence away from our closest relatives, with a marked decrease in overall gut size and a increased emphasis on the small intestine versus the large. This on of the greatest differences in human internal anatomy versus primates after that of increased size of the central nervous system.

Given the extreme biological closeness of humans with our primate brethren (Chimps of both types and humans should be part of the same genus) the differences in GI tract is pretty good evidence Homo sapiens has been evolving towards a diet denser in nutrients and easier to digest.

Also, you made a misleading comparison to the ruminant. Human GI tracts do not resemble theirs at all since they are very heavy on colon and caecum versus small intestine, the opposite of humans. Human GI tract isn't that of carnivorous mammal certainly, but its not like a herbivorous one's either. Herbivorous mammals generally have the ability to get large amounts of energy from bulk plant matter digested in the colon, a feature H sapiens' tiny large intestine is incapable of. Human GI more resembles that of mammals that eat a combination of high energy plant matter and animals, leaning towards the carnivorous side more than most in that very broad class. Given human food preferences, this should be hardly surprising or controversial.


In any case, experience has shown that a human can live healthily on either extreme, either as a vegan with no animal products, or in the case of the Inuit winter diet essentially entirely on animals. Either extreme requires dietary management though.


But you're right, it does come down a choice, because Homo sapiens is a very flexible omnivore that can be perfectly healthy across a wide range of diets. Especially so for modern first worlders that have access to supliments to replace what their diet lacks.