New Testingstan

What the actual fuck has happened over there?

"is it okay to use the n-word if I'm just with my racist buddies?"

it is nice to see straha doing good work though

A lot of unique and useful medical knowledge came from Nazi vivisection.

mang
OK guys I thought this was a myth? I thought the nazi vivisections were actually scientifically worthless since they didn't have control groups or etc. etc.?

evilsoup wrote:it is nice to see straha doing good work though

A lot of unique and useful medical knowledge came from Nazi vivisection.

mang
OK guys I thought this was a myth? I thought the nazi vivisections were actually scientifically worthless since they didn't have control groups or etc. etc.?

yes, it is a myth, but people used it uncritically for decades before they realized it was all shit and sewing people together was not the sign of a well-designed experiment

Are you seriously saying [whatever]? Really?

evilsoup wrote:I thought the nazi vivisections were actually scientifically worthless since they didn't have control groups or etc. etc.?

they also suffered from deeper methodological flaws such as being batshit fucking insane that couldn't possibly have any scientific value

"can we create conjoined twins by sewing regular twins together???"

control groups would not improve this expriment

that's part of the etc. etc.
but yeah I mean, some of them like testing at what temperatures people get hypothermia with cold baths and stuff could potentially be useful if carried out properly (and I believe proper scientists actually have carried out similarish tests to that, but with an emphasis on the safety of the voluntary test subjects and with proper methodology and ethics committees and so on)

Weren't Japanese mad scientist who did similarly fucked up things in Manchuria on hapless human test subjects quietly recruited by the Americans and their test papers taken? And what about experimentation on intelligent, aware mammal animals? I don't like how this thread is digressing.

Big Orangutan wrote:Weren't Japanese mad scientist who did similarly fucked up things in Manchuria on hapless human test subjects quietly recruited by the Americans and their test papers taken? And what about experimentation on intelligent, aware mammal animals? I don't like how this thread is digressing.

Actually, both the US and USSR used the biological weapons research of Army Unit 731 to build up their own WMD programs. Have fun sleeping tonite!

So, I'm watching fellowship of the Ring, right, and I began thinking about Return of the King and the Steward of Gondor. Has anyone ever argued that the quest to destroy the Ring was bad because it preserved monarchy?

I've never heard, specifically, that Sauron should be allowed to dominate Middle Earth to bring political change.

However David Brin (I think) has a quite infamous critique of Lord of the Rings where he suggests that heroism shouldn't just end at killing the dark lord and then having a bazillion peasants toiling in the fields or whatever.

This is not a very popular opinion lol

Jovial Jeff wrote:So, I'm watching fellowship of the Ring, right, and I began thinking about Return of the King and the Steward of Gondor. Has anyone ever argued that the quest to destroy the Ring was bad because it preserved monarchy?

no

but you should probably read michael moorcock's essay "epic pooh"

well not destroying the ring would just replace regular dung age monarchy with moo hoo ha ha cackling evil mad torture you for fun monarchy
but
being so pro-monarchist (and by extension anti-democratic) and idealising kings and queens who historically were just the biggest bastards who could lay their hands on the most swords is a criticism I often see thrown at LOTR-influenced generic medieval europe 'high fantasy'.

the worst example I can think of off the top of my head would be Eragon, where the main character swears allegiance to a queen and uses his unique power to back her and subvert the elected body that's supposed to be in charge. Now, since he's a teenager and the queen is about the same age and pretty and etc., the character can be forgiven for making that choice, but then the narrative supports his decision as the right thing to do and the elected dudes were just getting in the way and blah blah blah

ps does anyone know of any socialist fantasy? I know there's a fair amount of socialist sci fi (hell, you can even include star trek the next generation if you squint a bit)
if anyone says china meiville I will reach through my computer screen and punch you, because I mean lord of the rings type epic fantasy (and also not shit fantasy)

Infinity Biscuit wrote:I personally don't think the problem with sd.net is any sort of vitriol or insults or anything by itself

I think the issue comes from the liberal privileged-as-default-and-right perspective that laces the board combined with the massively competitive nature (so basically because it's full of patriarchal masculinity :L :L :L)

I think it's the arrogance that's the fundamental problem. The thing about arrogance is it compounds other problems. Ignorance can be lessened, mistaken beliefs can be corrected, narrow perspectives can be expanded, but arrogance sets up barriers to that. When you think you're right and everybody else is wrong knowledge, opinions, perspectives etc. different from yours start to look like obstacles and threats: they're wrong and standing in the way of rightness, worse they may be trying to spread their wrongness and trying to take away your rightness and make you wrong too.

Bakustra wrote:and now, a message from our sponsors

<snip "CHICOMS111!">

Energiewende? It sounds like the kind of thing he'd post.

I wonder how long he'll last on the board.

Bakustra wrote:Actually, both the US and USSR used the biological weapons research of Army Unit 731 to build up their own WMD programs. Have fun sleeping tonite!

MKULTRA is also a fun part of shitthathappened.txt, not to mention the programs of forced sterilisation of random minorities and others, that were popular in certain countries right up until the '70s

Bakustra wrote:

Big Orangutan wrote:Weren't Japanese mad scientist who did similarly fucked up things in Manchuria on hapless human test subjects quietly recruited by the Americans and their test papers taken? And what about experimentation on intelligent, aware mammal animals? I don't like how this thread is digressing.

Actually, both the US and USSR used the biological weapons research of Army Unit 731 to build up their own WMD programs. Have fun sleeping tonite!

US biological weapons program was formally shut down in the 70s following treaty with the USSR.

USSR assumed this was a ruse and continued developing biological weapons in secret, including trying to develop viruses that would trick the body's immune system into attacking the myelin sheaths around nerve fibers.

Infinity Biscuit wrote:I personally don't think the problem with sd.net is any sort of vitriol or insults or anything by itself

I think the issue comes from the liberal privileged-as-default-and-right perspective that laces the board combined with the massively competitive nature (so basically because it's full of patriarchal masculinity :L :L :L)

now both of these are probably exacerbated by the insults and stuff since in the former case they help solidify the "people who hold other beliefs are stupid" mindset and in the latter since it helps provoke the aggression. But I don't think they'd be an issue on their own, and I don't think swears have anything to do with it at all?

like I can't figure out how the presence or lack of stuff like "fuck" or "shit" would make a difference in an informal setting

also that guy baks quotes is the same in both posts it's ralin

I'm almost tempted to ask you to read some threads about gender representation on tabletop wargaming forums, but I damn near threw up reading some of them. SDN somehow continues to come across as a bastion of civilization in comparison. Which is sad.

oh man i just got the idea to finish the first draft of chapter one of my book. i got 7/10 pieces done to the editor's approval but couldn't really decide a good topic to talk about for the other three

until now. gotta start writing, it is due tomorrow! i think if i have good stuff to talk about and am on fire though i can do a chapter in two days. tonight will be the first trial by fire!

Jung wrote: I think it's the arrogance that's the fundamental problem. The thing about arrogance is it compounds other problems. Ignorance can be lessened, mistaken beliefs can be corrected, narrow perspectives can be expanded, but arrogance sets up barriers to that. When you think you're right and everybody else is wrong knowledge, opinions, perspectives etc. different from yours start to look like obstacles and threats: they're wrong and standing in the way of rightness, worse they may be trying to spread their wrongness and trying to take away your rightness and make you wrong too.

And combine it with the swears or/and impotent rage, and it becomes a headache being subjected to this sort of thing.

And you get smallish numbers of people form up into angry packs (with similar opinions on the certain things), other debaters get alienated, and intellectual inbreeding sets in.

ncis is hilarious, gotta defend the NSA from snowden in prime time

evilsoup wrote:

Would Ralin be saying the same thing about artwork made from human bones that are harvested from mass-murdered humans?

I dunno. I'd have to think about that one.

Well, I mean, it would be a shame to mass-murder a bunch of people and use their bones for art and then get rid of the art. Then all you have left is the mass murdering, and that seems kind of pointless.

Ralin wrote: Well, I mean, it would be a shame to mass-murder a bunch of people and use their bones for art and then get rid of the art. Then all you have left is the mass murdering, and that seems kind of pointless.

So you'd think it'd be a good idea to keep around a serial killer's trophies and furniture made out of his victims?

Big Orangutan wrote:

Ralin wrote: Well, I mean, it would be a shame to mass-murder a bunch of people and use their bones for art and then get rid of the art. Then all you have left is the mass murdering, and that seems kind of pointless.

So you'd think it'd be a good idea to keep around a serial killer's trophies and furniture made out of his victims?

Well, like I said, I'd have to think about it. It would depend on the circumstances.

Moot point since the thread was about those goddamn elephants, not people

Elephants are much more like people and seem fully self-aware (much like apes, dogs, and dolphins), they mourn over their dead and feel grief like we do (and a cute elephant baby that nearly got stamped on by its mother and rejected by her, was seen literally crying for hours afterwards).

Ralin wrote:Well, I mean, it would be a shame to mass-murder a bunch of people and use their bones for art and then get rid of the art.

Actually, if it was just the past action, I might agree with you, but the key thing here is they are trying to reduce the incentive to continue the killing in the future.