New Testingstan

Crazedwraith wrote:You know I quite enjoyed reading the EU novels I did before I went online and discovered that unbeknownest to me they were the worst things ever.

But in the end, I still go that enjoyment from reading them at the time, no matter what the internet and no matter what the canonical status of them is. So long as lucasbooks don't kick down the door and burn my wraith squadron books. I'm A-OK.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on the post-ROTJ EU. At one point I would've been pissed that they're probably going to stop making books with the existing characters, but the all of the post-ROTJ characters and themes have essentially been "burned out" for me, probably since the end of the NJO. I don't really have any sympathy for the hyper-inclusionists, aside from the obvious fact that they need help for their OCD, but I do feel a little sorry for people who are still interested in characters like Jaina Solo, Tahiri Veila, and Ben Skywalker, since they probably won't be featured in any new material once the ST comes out.

Still, at least Jaina fans are getting an entire book trilogy about her.

I still enjoy the EU more or less. I almos burned out on it because of all the vs debate crap the same way I burned out on b5, but its merely 'less interested' than I sued to be rather than go full tilt to the I HATE STAR WARS that some have.

I actually remember enjoying reading the Zahn novels and how much it reacptured that childlike feeling of star wars I had. Even if its just pure nostalgia value I liked that. Also despite what alot of people felt about it, I always rather liked the WEG stuff and even some of the WOTC stuff. The WEG stuff was at least willing to be 'different' in a way that some of the fans wouldn't (either by the slavish adherence TO the WEG mateiral, or the slavish hatred of it because it wasn't 'the right view.')

If there was anything I did grow tired of it was everything past NJO. It was kind of palling evne then, and I could just barely tolerate Swarm War (which was sort of just an add on to tie up loose ends from that novel) but the Legacy of the Force series was my breaking point. And not really because of Karen traviss being involved so much in that it was such a rehash of everything that had come before, and a poorly done and thinly veiled one at that, that not even Troy Denning and KJA (two SW authors I have consistently liked) could save it for me.

I still find I liked or am interested in much of the EU stuff that falls roughly between the prequel era and a bit before, or some small time after the OT and NJO.

And what about those extra-galactic guys, I don't remember their names ? The biotech guys.

*shudder* The Yuuzhan Vong...

Never looked into it, but from a distance they don't really feel, well... star-warzy.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zj8PxMAG8rs

What about that tower

Glass Fort MacLeod wrote:Troy Denning and KJA (two SW authors I have consistently liked)

How dare you sully Aaron Allston's good name with that heathen.

The Spartan wrote:*shudder* The Yuuzhan Vong...

The idea of the Vong was okay. As was the potential in 'what happens if Star Wars is actually plunged into a galactic war?' I mean it would have kind of broken the mold of the whole 'every new book the Galaxy is at threat from some Sith/Alien/Insurrection/Superweapon menace' and would have forced the characters into some new dynamic. I mean I actually liked Chewbacca's death for that reason as a concept, because it has the potential for emotional impact and to force characters (like Han) to cope with the aftermath. Or Anakin's Death.

In practice, the execution of the series was really hit or miss. There were some great novels (Luceno, Denning, and Allston in particular) but there was some really lousy stuff too (Balance Point.) Plus, I think the Vong never really developed into the actual THREAT they promised, because they really weren't quite as epic in presentation - part of that may be attributed to 'minimalism' prejudice of course but on the other hand... they're actually trying to conquer a whole fucking galaxy. Even if the New REpublic is only a fraction of that galaxy, its a big fucking place and it would take alot of effort to do so. There would be alot of potential for playing on the dynamics of that and the difficulties - making allies, enemies, etc. That was one thing that (by contrast) DS9 did better with I think, as the Dominion actually felt like more of a 'external' threat in those respects.

And then there was the whole biotech thing, which was... poorly thought out. I don't object to the notion of biotech, but the application in the Vong's case was basically 'just like Starwars ONLY WITH MEAT' which does NOT work. I mean many times the contrived analogues for stuff like display screens and such was just groan worthy.

I also suspect there wasn't all that much cooperation and coordination between the various authors when it came to writing out the war. There were many points in the series that felt disjointed or unconnected from one writer to another - whether it was how the Vong tech worked, their motivations, how they were organized, or in the characterizations (Nom Anor in particular.) Greater coordination might have helped there.

RogueIce wrote:

Glass Fort MacLeod wrote:Troy Denning and KJA (two SW authors I have consistently liked)

How dare you sully Aaron Allston's good name with that heathen.

Oopos. I meant Allston. Although Luceno goes there.

KJA isn't nearly as bad as people say he is. He's just.. shlock and pulp and kinda hit or miss in doing that. I never cease to be amused at how people react to his Dune work. Its like someone urinated on Jesus' grave.
(Some of his Dune stuff was silly, like many parts of the Bulterian Jihad, but some of his other novels weren't too bad. Although I'll admit the 'SUPRRISE ENEMIES' at the end of Dune does make me roll my eyes.)

Maybe he's just writing for the wrong universe.

Like Zou.

I used to list KJA as one of my favourite authors as a kid.

I tried rereading the Jedi Academy trilogy a few years ago after I'd reread the Thrawn trilogy. I literally couldn't get ten pages in before I gave up because the writing was so terrible. And since I'd remembered those books so fondly I don't think it was bias or anything.

Like, I couldn't even get to any objectionable plot or characterisation aspects since it was the writing itself that turned me away. Is that ever listed as a complaint for KJA or is it just the way people perceive him as mishandling the IP?

Glass Fort MacLeod wrote:KJA isn't nearly as bad as people say he is.

Aaron wrote:Like Zou.

Zou actually wasn't a bad writer when it came to 'Emperor's Mercy'. Sure he's no abnett (despite Abnett's praise) but it was a pretty solid book and I think it had a nice 'military' atmosphere to it that was different and interesting for 40K. But he fucked up Flesh and Iron the same way KJA fucked up the Jedi Acaedmy trilogy. Dull characters, unengaging plot, and nothing to really pull at the reader so they just really plod through from start to finish. Not a good way to write a book. And Blood Gorgons was just CSM fetishism through and through. but what really killed him were the plagarism accusations, I think.

In 40K terms KJA is more like CS Goto, writing Eldar. Goto gets a bad rep because nerds obsess over the little detials (OMG HE DIDN'T STICK MULTILASERS ON VEHICLES. HERESY! Some people should read some of the early 40K fluff about multilasers...) but the DoW novels were passable and the Deathwatch stuff was pretty good. His Eldar work was.. however.. fucking boring. Eldar Prophecy was the one horrible novel he did because it was incredibly dull. I mean the bad parts of DoW were okay because I could at least laugh at the silliness of Gabriel having his little religious seizures, but I didnt even get that with Eldar Prophecy.

Infinity Biscuit wrote:I used to list KJA as one of my favourite authors as a kid.

I tried rereading the Jedi Academy trilogy a few years ago after I'd reread the Thrawn trilogy. I literally couldn't get ten pages in before I gave up because the writing was so terrible. And since I'd remembered those books so fondly I don't think it was bias or anything.

Like, I couldn't even get to any objectionable plot or characterisation aspects since it was the writing itself that turned me away. Is that ever listed as a complaint for KJA or is it just the way people perceive him as mishandling the IP?

I dont think they ever intellectualize it beyond 'KJA is shit'. For me it wasnt the writing per se, although the guy can come up with some incredibly silly shit. The novels were just plain boring however. There was nothing really interesting to engage a person, the action didn't really feel.. action worthy. It was just plain dull. I can forgive bad writing even because it at least engages me, even if its in a critical manner. But boring writing doesn't engage me at all, and that's worse. Although Darksaber was a bit better than the JAT in that regard (in the sense there were things happening, although I still can't forgive 'Daala you're such a pain.' Not exactly sterling comeback material.)

And as I said his Dune stuff is pretty hit and miss, which is the best thing you can say about the guy. Some stuff is good and some of it isn't.

Glass Fort MacLeod wrote:In practice, the execution of the series was really hit or miss.

For me it was more miss than hit. I agree with you on the biotech stuff. It came across, often, as silly to me; less from the concept than the execution. And as much as I hated to see him go, having Chewbacca die, added potential weight to the plot line, but it felt to me to be more of a macguffin to have Han be depressed (look guys! emotional weight!) than an actual thought out plotline with consequences and so forth. If that makes any sense. Their worship of pain thing really bugged me. I don't object to the concept per se, but like the Vong themselves, I felt like it was more miss than hit.

The Spartan wrote:Their worship of pain thing really bugged me.

That to me just came off as a lame "LOOK WE'RE EVIL SEE HOW EVIL WE ARE PAIN FOR THE PAIN GODS" and so on.

Also their magic invulnerability to stuff. Like I wasn't even annoyed per se about the bio-tech > conventional tech stuff because whatever, but "lol immune to Force take that Jeedai scum" just came off as, "Well we can't think of any other way to make them threatening to the Jedi so..." and/or just a symptom that the EU had overwanked the Jedi too much and needed a bullshit asspull to keep them from dominating.

But then maybe I'm being unfair in my assessment.

RogueIce wrote: That to me just came off as a lame "LOOK WE'RE EVIL SEE HOW EVIL WE ARE PAIN FOR THE PAIN GODS" and so on.

Fun fact. The entire Vong race wasn't supposed to worship pain. It was a characteristic that Stackpole came up with for Domain Shai, who were going to be the main antagonists in his books, but the other writers got the wrong memo or something and turned it into a racial trait.

Compared to the subsequent book series, the NJO was rife with misunderstanding and a lack of communication between writers, which, combined with the sheer length of it (seriously. It's 20+ books) caused a lot of the issues with the series

19 books. and didn't they have to dramatically change direction part way through when lucas demanded the kill off anakin and had to try and shove jacen into his role for the last few books.

I know there was a mandate from on high to kill off Anakin Solo, because someone was afraid casual readers would get him confused with the Anakin from the films or something, but I don't know if it came from Lucas himself. The only think I know for certain regarding Lucas and the NJO, is that for Vector Prime, they actually wanted to kill off Luke, but Lucas vetoed that, so Chewie got mooned instead, and that's why Luke doesn't appear to do much for the first couple of books until they worked out a new story arc for him.

Honestly, when you consider how hamstrung the series was by editorial meddling, miscommunication between the various authors, and it's own sheer length, it's impressive that it managed to produce as many memorable moments and quality stories as it did.

If it's true that Anakin Solo died because people were seriously concerned a bunch of book readers would get confused differentiating between two different characters in two different settings in two different mediums sharing the same first name, I have to say whoever was in charge of making decisions for SW licenced fiction was a complete idiot. If it was a TV series I'd understand, but holy shit book readers are literate for fuck's sake. They might read garbage, but they can read.

And if it was Lucas, then... I'm not surprised. Because it's the kind of stupid move he'd probably make.

Two words: Bat. Embargo.

Okay maybe that's not fair, could have been some licensing or copyright issues there. But yeah, that mentality is dumb but not unheard of, either.

Although funny anecdote: that Anakin thing was brought up on SDN once, and when I was discussing it I did accidently type out Anakin Skywalker when I meant Anakin Solo. So maybe they had a point?

Stofsk wrote:If it's true that Anakin Solo died because people were seriously concerned a bunch of book readers would get confused differentiating between two different characters in two different settings in two different mediums sharing the same first name, I have to say whoever was in charge of making decisions for SW licenced fiction was a complete idiot. If it was a TV series I'd understand, but holy shit book readers are literate for fuck's sake. They might read garbage, but they can read.

And if it was Lucas, then... I'm not surprised. Because it's the kind of stupid move he'd probably make.

One of the ANH star wars characters got named after Conan O'Brien due to some offhand comment by Lucas made in jest, which the Wiki obsessed took to be 'canonical.' It has long since stuck.

Between that and the inclusion of obscure toys and Star Tours as 'in-universe' data, I've long since given up under-estimating what will get crammed into the continuity.



Edit: As far as the NJO/LOTF stuff, its amusing to me that the former actually tried to do something new, but then utterly failed to keep it internally conherent amongst the writers (leading to the writing to be of random quality and disjointed), whilst the latter had something resembling coherency, but utterly failed to be original and/or interesting (basically a recycling of the prequel plot. Evil Jedi betrays government and order for love of woman, civlization degenerates into civil war over legal/political issues, etc.) Its like they ration out quality to the extent that you can have one or the other, but not both.

Ando, your tumblr person hasn't posted their denouement yet. I am mildly disappointed.

joviwan wrote:I'm 97% sure that Expendables 2 only exists so that Jason Statham could say "I now pronounce you man and knife."

Also pretty much every line from Schwarzenegger/Willis.

So I read X-Wing: Mercy Kill and I have to say it was definitely up to standard. Good humor, good character work, and an all around fun plot with plenty of emotion and growth for the Wraiths. Who knows if it ever gets a follow-up but I would be very happy to see the further adventures of the New Wraiths.