New Testingstan

adr wrote:Luke could read and interpret the Bible Force himself,
...
In a sense, he is the common man relying on his own faith, even if it is extraordinary among the common folks, rather than the chosen elite relying on his organized church authority.

...
Like kinda like exceptional individuals can make a difference and they can also come from anywhere, even a farm boy in the middle of nowhere.

Being the son of Force Jesus and having magic powers he possesses through no particular virtue of his own.

without the priests Jedi council telling him what it really said.

Luke did listen to what the Jedi Council told him. The Jedi Council being embodied by Yoda and Obi-wan, by virtue of them being the only Council members still alive.

He only really defied them the one time, when he went to Cloud City and got his hand lopped off because of it. He was right about redeeming Vader back, but meh. He's the protagonist.

Ralin wrote:Being the son of Force Jesus and having magic powers he possesses through no particular virtue of his own.

ANH ruined Star Wars.

It should have focused on the true hero: Wedge. An ordinary guy from the Bronx who just did his best to support the team without seeking any glory for himself and found it was consistently, if just barely, good enough.

Luke did listen to what the Jedi Council told him. The Jedi Council being embodied by Yoda and Obi-wan, by virtue of them being the only Council members still alive.

But that's not really an organized Church, that's a voice in his head and a weirdo in the woods....

I feel like TFA is the opposite of the PT for me. The PT had a valid story to explore but was not that greatly done. TFA is slick and fancy but has no real meaning and no impact beyond 'moar star wars'. Which is enough for some people but left me unsatisfied.

I scoffed at people whinging about the gone Eu but honestly that's how I feel more than anything. TFA has the same tropes people were tired off in the EU but somehow people still love it.

adr wrote:
But that's not really an organized Church, that's a voice in his head and a weirdo in the woods....

Sure they are. They're literally the surviving Jedi Council.

I scoffed at people whinging about the gone Eu but honestly thats how i feel more than anything. Tfa has the same tropes pele were tired off in the EU but somehow people still love it.

I always loved most of the EU

TFA has got themes.

The biggest one of the film is: "You can't go home again| You can't go back again."

Like, it's a pretty core story it's telling here, in amidst the plot, both literally and metaphorically.

Rey's journey is about realizing that leaving Jakku to continue with her life is more important than waiting for a family who will never return--and the movie is so unsubtle about this it dedicates at least one entire character whose only purpose is to spell this out.

Kylo's journey--and that of the First Order in general--is about how mimicking the past is not the same as *being* what came before. Kylo is not Darth Vader. The First Order is not the Empire. They're delusional, pale, yet still dangerous imitations, and Kylo's awareness of this drives his motivations.

Han and Leia's story starts off at the end of this theme--their relationship is over, and their family is broken. Han dies trying to bring it back together. Han briefly has the Falcon again, but much of it has changed from what it used to be, and it overwhelms him, and trying to bring on Rey is an admission that his old way of life wont work anymore.

Luke's implied journey is the same: he tries to restore the Jedi order, and fails. This and other reasons sends him out to go soul-searching for the roots of jedi philosophy.

Finn's journey is an interesting inverse of this--he starts off *not wanting* to go back, and spends much of the film trying to flee to safety. He eventually comes around to the idea that he can't simply wait for safety.

And the movie itself is playing with this on a meta-level. "You can't go back to how it used to be." for example, people are mad that Kylo isn't "an awesome villain?" Yes, correct--that's part of his character! You can't go back to having Darth Vader.

But the important subtext in all of these stories, playing to this theme, is "But there's something else you can go to--something better and beyond, and different."

For me, the most exciting thing about TFA is *that promise*. It's also the most terrifying. It sets up some really excellent ideas for the sequels. it just remains to be seen if the future writers/directors actually carry those ideas out to their logical conclusion, or just throw them out for their own spin on "hur dur ster wers."

Joviwan wrote:

Solid analysis

Stofsk wrote:

Joviwan wrote:

Solid analysis

Crazedwraith wrote:I scoffed at people whinging about the gone Eu but honestly that's how I feel more than anything. TFA has the same tropes people were tired off in the EU but somehow people still love it.

It's been awhile since I read the old EU and TBH I gave up shortly into NJO so maybe I'm missing some things. But the only real parallels I can think of are Superweapons and Darth Han-and-Leia's Son.

For the former, well, yeah it became a bit of a punchline for the "superweapon of the week" and that was itself a bit of an issue, but on an individual level not all of them were bad. The Suncrusher was fucking ridiculous and the World Devastators get a 'meh' out of me, but the Eclipse was kinda cool and Centerpoint Station was a neat concept but the story surrounding it wasn't that great. I don't remember the other post-Ep6 EU superweapons TBH.

Starkiller Base is just really awesome looking. And like, pretty useful. And yeah the "retread ANH" thing is there, but it was handled differently and the entire setup was based off an apparently insane and suicidal maneuver in the first place and at least Han hung a lampshade on it unlike say the Suncrusher, WDs, Eclipse and CS which were totally played straight (although I do know Han made a "Nostril of Palpatine" crack in one of the NJO books so there's that).

And then there's Darth Han-and-Leia's Son. Now I never actually read LotJ because fuck that shit, but just what I skimmed from Wookieepedia was enough and I know a lot of people say they ripped off Anakin Skywalker but worse (lol) and I kind of agree. I mean why does he have a daughter conceived in secret? It's not like the NJO cared, he himself being offspring of a Jedi mother. And then the execution of the stories themselves rubbed a lot of people the wrong way but I never read them so whatever.

By contrast, Kylo Ren really is different in motivations to Jacen Solo and I think it was really well executed, but again I can't really directly compare the two so YMMV on the execution front. He's definitely a different setup from what the EU did, though.

I guess there's also the Fail Republic but for all we know they were pretty decent at governing for the prior 20-whatever years before getting blown up unlike the Legends version lurching from one crisis to the next.

I was thinking the commonalities as the endless continuation/resurgence of the empire. the superweapons. and the evil darkside child. Yeah you can make the arguement they did some or all of those elements better than the EU. (I never read lotf either and just reading they went in that direction make me angry ) But it still rankles me. *shrug* and They're still not original elements.

And yes, if you want to read into things you can. I mostly meant 'this had little to no impact to me while watching the films'. But the arguement that Kylo Ren being annoying whiny emo peice of shit with no real reason to fall to the dark side is actually a brilliant peice of metaness falls flat. The argument to me suggests 'well you were expecting a badass so we so clever to subvert that expectation by making our villian lame' its Star Trek Generation's style writing in the approach to Kirk's death. (you were expecting it be epic, so we made it suck!)

But yeah this is my very subjective personal opinion *shrugs again*

RogueIce wrote:And then there's Darth Han-and-Leia's Son. Now I never actually read LotJ because fuck that shit, but just what I skimmed from Wookieepedia was enough and I know a lot of people say they ripped off Anakin Skywalker but worse (lol) and I kind of agree. I mean why does he have a daughter conceived in secret? It's not like the NJO cared, he himself being offspring of a Jedi mother. And then the execution of the stories themselves rubbed a lot of people the wrong way but I never read them so whatever.

As I recall, it was because her mother was the queen of a pretty cut throat and less than stable independent polity and they didn't want to make the daughter a target or weaken her politically because she mated with a Jedi. But I didn't read the Dark Nest books and only picked it up second hand from the Legacy of the Force books I suffered through

By contrast, Kylo Ren really is different in motivations to Jacen Solo and I think it was really well executed, but again I can't really directly compare the two so YMMV on the execution front. He's definitely a different setup from what the EU did, though.

Dead wrong. Kylo Ren has EXACTLY the same character and motives as Darth Jacen. The difference being that it works because his Vader fixation didn't come way the fuck out of nowhere after decades of continuity.

Crazedwraith wrote:But the arguement that Kylo Ren being annoying whiny emo peice of shit with no real reason to fall to the dark side is actually a brilliant peice of metaness falls flat.

He's the the son of a famous general and a probably wealthy politician. He would have had all sorts of temptations encouraging him to be a shithead even before you factor in the family tendency towards magic-powered psychotic killing rampages.

I mean, we don't know exactly how it went down but Leia said he had "too much Vader in him" for a reason. Not hard to guess what the problem was, at least in broad strokes.

while you were learning how to spell your name, i was being trained to conquer galaxies!

Crazedwraith wrote:But the arguement that Kylo Ren being annoying whiny emo peice of shit with no real reason to fall to the dark side is actually a brilliant peice of metaness falls flat.

He's the the son of a famous general and a probably wealthy politician. He would have had all sorts of temptations encouraging him to be a shithead even before you factor in the family tendency towards magic-powered psychotic killing rampages.

I mean, we don't know exactly how it went down but Leia said he had "too much Vader in him" for a reason. Not hard to guess what the problem was, at least in broad strokes.

Being Evil is not heretitary and that reason boils down to bad parenting and emoness.

Crazedwraith wrote:Being Evil is not heretitary and that reason boils down to bad parenting and emoness.

It can be when we're talking about magic. Anakin wasn't born evil, but his Force powers gave him a whole lot more opportunity to be that way, and made things that would have been minor for regular people (fear, anger, etc) substantially bigger deals.

There's a reason why the Jedi had all those monastic rules and teachings about detachment. The prequels implied that they were wrong about it, but given how badly not following them turned out they didn't really make a good case for that.

Ralin wrote:Sure they are. They're literally the surviving Jedi Council.

They are the surviving members of the Council, but the argument could be made that they are fallen Jedi. Their decision to train Luke was to give him the ability to kill Vader and Palpatine. Their concern was less in preparing him to resurrect the Jedi and more to turn him into a weapon so they could get revenge on an enemy who believes their Order to be long dead. They were basically trying to turn him into Darth Maul. The Jedi teachings about emotional detachment were still useful, though, since they were training him to assassinate his own father.

Ralin wrote:There's a reason why the Jedi had all those monastic rules and teachings about detachment. The prequels implied that they were wrong about it, but given how badly not following them turned out they didn't really make a good case for that.

It's a bit self-fulfilling, though. The Sith encourage tapping into their emotions, but they do it with exclusively destructive ones because they provide a quick short-term burst of power. And the Jedi were so afraid that allowing emotional attachments would become a slippery slope to the Dark Side, like how Anakin's attachment to Padme led to his fall because he was afraid of losing her, that they teach complete emotional detachment, which leaves their students unprepared to deal with the emotions they do feel, like how Anakin's attachment to Padme led to his fall because he was afraid of losing her.

So their teachings about detachment are necessary because their students who don't follow them keep falling to the Dark Side because their teachings about detachment leave those students unprepared to deal with the consequences when they don't follow them.

Civil War Man wrote:They are the surviving members of the Council, but the argument could be made that they are fallen Jedi. Their decision to train Luke was to give him the ability to kill Vader and Palpatine. Their concern was less in preparing him to resurrect the Jedi and more to turn him into a weapon so they could get revenge on an enemy who believes their Order to be long dead. They were basically trying to turn him into Darth Maul. The Jedi teachings about emotional detachment were still useful, though, since they were training him to assassinate his own father.

I don't think that was their plan. Honestly I'm not sure they had a specific endgame in mind for Luke and Leia other than let them grow up sane and well-adjusted, keep them safe and hidden and be on hand to teach them when the time was right. They never said they expected Luke to kill Vader and Palpatine from what I remember. And in fact specifically told Luke to stay the hell away from them.

I mean...Yoda fought the Emperor. Do you really think he expected Luke or Leia to train up to the point where they could take on him and Vader? Whether they specifically wanted them to resurrect the Jedi I dunno (I assume they intended it in some form), I think the overall plan was more of a leap of faith and trusting the Force to make it all work out. If they just wanted revenge they could have bidded their time and jumped Vader two on one while he was on some mission.

It's a bit self-fulfilling, though. The Sith encourage tapping into their emotions, but they do it with exclusively destructive ones because they provide a quick short-term burst of power. And the Jedi were so afraid that allowing emotional attachments would become a slippery slope to the Dark Side, like how Anakin's attachment to Padme led to his fall because he was afraid of losing her, that they teach complete emotional detachment, which leaves their students unprepared to deal with the emotions they do feel, like how Anakin's attachment to Padme led to his fall because he was afraid of losing her.

That's what the idea was, sure. I don't think they really showed it as intended. If anything they proved that the rule against accepting padawans as old as Anakin was a damned good rule, because...

So their teachings about detachment are necessary because their students who don't follow them keep falling to the Dark Side because their teachings about detachment leave those students unprepared to deal with the consequences when they don't follow them.

The Jedi teachings about emotional detachment worked. Jedi like Anakin and Dooku or Dooku's apprentice who became the head of an insane death cult were anomalies, who generally came about from not following the teachings in question. A Jedi feeling strong emotions isn't like you or me feeling strong emotions, and I don't just mean because they have more power to act on them. When Luke gets pissed off he's touching the Dark Side and being corrupted on some level even if he isn't actively committing an atrocity because being strong in the Force means he's essentially mainlining evil magic into his brain. People like that need to follow different rules to keep themselves under control and not turn into a threat to everyone around them.

And it's not like the Jedi taught total emotional detachment. They absolutely cared about things. Obi-wan loved Anakin. Mace Windu passionately believed in the importance of the Republic. Yoda was clearly hurt deeply when he felt all those Jedi dying in Order 66. The difference between them and Anakin is that they had the discipline and humility to let go of those feelings instead of being overwhelmed by them.

Ralin wrote:Dead wrong. Kylo Ren has EXACTLY the same character and motives as Darth Jacen. The difference being that it works because his Vader fixation didn't come way the fuck out of nowhere after decades of continuity.

First of all, let me offer my sincerest condolences to you for slogging through LotF.

Secondly, I shall concede because well I couldn't even be bothered to go past Jacen's intro on Wookieepedia. All I got was "secret daughter" and "some Sith chick convinced Jacen he'd end up killing Luke if Jacen didn't go Sith" which sounds amazingly stupid and you wonder why he would ever believe that. Which doesn't sound at all like Kylo Ren to me but maybe there was more to it in the LotF books. Or that bit was only in Dark Nest and then LotF retconned it because lol EU

But yeah, I think the main thing is that TFA, even where it reused EU elements, isn't weighed down by the rest of said EU. Only those who cared about the old EU would even know about those elements, and I'm guessing they're a pretty small percentage of the people who went and watched it to the tune of nearly a billion dollars in the US alone.

In that respect, the ANH rehash at the end is really more of an issue than any old EU elements creeping in, because people are actually going to know about that. And to their credit they at least worked around that so it wasn't completely ANH 2.0 but more like, I don't know, ANH 1.5b or something.

I mean not that I'm saying TFA is the greatest movie ever anyway, it has its issues and I acknowledge them. But overall it really was just a damn fun movie so I can't complain (too much lol). I wonder if a lot of it is just that Star Wars really works better in a visual medium. Plus Daisy Ridely, John Boyega and especially Harrison Ford really hitting it out of the park with their acting. In a way that very few EU authors could ever bring the characters to life in the same way that the actors could (and did). That probably plays a huge role in why I prefer TFA over most of the EU honestly.

RogueIce wrote: First of all, let me offer my sincerest condolences to you for slogging through LotF.

I only read a few of them and summaries of the rest. I still hadn't really formed an opinion on Karen Traviss back then, because SD.net hates everything EU and is pretty biased, but when I got to the part where Han went all sniper assassin on cousin Thracken I was like "...The fuck is this shit?"

First one was decent and had some potential, but that's more a function of the fact that Aaron Allston could write a fucking phone book and make it entertaining.

Secondly, I shall concede because well I couldn't even be bothered to go past Jacen's intro on Wookieepedia. All I got was "secret daughter" and "some Sith chick convinced Jacen he'd end up killing Luke if Jacen didn't go Sith" which sounds amazingly stupid and you wonder why he would ever believe that.

Honestly, I can't remember the details even though that was in the first book. Allston made it sounds believable, but again, Allston, phone book. Also I think she manipulated Jacen into murdering some lady to nudge him down the left hand path.

Which doesn't sound at all like Kylo Ren to me but maybe there was more to it in the LotF books. Or that bit was only in Dark Nest and then LotF retconned it because lol EU

Jacen literally develops this weird ass obsession with his grandfather and how IF ONLY HE COULD UNDERSTAND WHERE ANAKIN WENT WRONG HE COULD FIX ALL THIS!!! It's totally the fuck out of nowhere.

Also he becomes Darth Dubya. Really. His whole tenure as de facto ruler of the Galactic Alliance (for some reason) was an extended allegory for the Bush administration. He even forms a Department of Republic Security with himself at the head and one of his agents goes up to him and says that his father worked with Jacen's grandfather and that he's proud to carry on the family tradition.

Also they kill Boba Fett's daughter with enhanced interrogation or some shit.

But yeah, it was totally the fact that Karen Traviss is a woman that set off so much hate for her.

Are you being serious there... or not?

It's Ralin.

Do the math yourself.

Crazedwraith wrote:Are you being serious there... or not?

About which part? Because that all happened and it was what switched me from neutral on Traviss to actively disliking her.

I mean, I don't think it was literally called the Department of Republic Homeland Security (especially since the New Republic was no longer an existing state/government at this point), but that's pretty much what it was described as.

That Travis being a woman is being what made people hate her. The totally could make it sarcastic or not.

Crazedwraith wrote:That Travis being a woman is being what made people hate her. The totally could make it sarcastic or not.

I was teasing Stofsk or someone who said she was singled out because of that. As opposed to publicly talking about ripping her critics tracheas out.

Ralin wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:That Travis being a woman is being what made people hate her. The totally could make it sarcastic or not.

I was teasing Stofsk