Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

[Agent Bert Macklin]

"oh, hai there. I am now uber religious because God saved my son from something horrible even though he let him get in that position in the first place. I'm going to go all Christian on Facebook!"

Thank God you can stop BS from showing up on your news feed.

[RogueIce]

So in other Middle East political news: ‘Too sexy’ for Ayatollah? Iranian councilor banned for ‘model’ looks

Moradi’s campaign posters showed her wearing strict hijab without a strand of hair on display. Despite this, conservative religious groups launched protests to demand her disqualification as soon as her election was confirmed.

In a letter to the governor of Qazvin, a coalition of religious groups condemned the “vulgar and anti-religious” posters and said they breached Islamic law.

News website IranWire reported that there were other objections to her campaign. According to the website, her headquarters became a gathering place for local young people, whose behavior and clothing provoked criticism from her opponents, mostly older conservative men.

The complaint was challenged but ultimately upheld. She was disqualified for not “observing the Islamic norms.”

Citing local media, IranWire reported that authorities had also confiscated the campaign posters of two other female candidates, Maryam Nakhostin-Ahmadi and Shahla Atefeh, and detained both for questioning.

More at the link, of course, but this is what caught my interest. Well, mostly the last line about two other female candidates being in trouble as well, and even detained, but I figured I'd include at least enough of the main story so people would know what it's about.

I did see another article on it, which quoted some legal expert in that city as saying her disqualification was more or less illegal anyway, because she was confirmed by whatever regulatory body beforehand, and after the election it's too late to DQ her. Not that it seems to have stopped some people from trying.

[Jung]

I'm not exactly rooting for the Muslim Brotherhood (though the fact that they remained pacifist over 40 years of repression does impress me), but I am sick of certain smug liberals who were cheering when the military took over and insisted that a military coup was in some way serving democracy -- and refusing to call it a coup at all

and in the news reporting there's this constant background assumption that the Muslim Brotherhood are some kind of violent terrorists, when they're not; they're a legitimate political party, albeit one with horribly regressive policies.

Look, democracy's all well and good until the people make choices I don't like

Then sometimes more enlightened people have to step in and set them back on the right track

Toward becoming Western secular liberals like all human beings really want to be deep down

People who basically think like Christian missionaries while having an ideology that's all about populism and self-determination and FREEDOM can be funny. Or would be funny if it people weren't getting hurt and killed over this kind of stuff.

[RyanThunder]

Look, democracy's all well and good until the people make choices I don't like

Then sometimes more enlightened people have to step in and set them back on the right track

[Oxymoron]

Man, it's been so long since I watched that movie.

[evilsoup]

what movie is that?

[Oxymoron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Camelot

[evilsoup]

Toward becoming Western secular liberals like all human beings really want to be deep down

People who basically think like Christian missionaries while having an ideology that's all about populism and self-determination and FREEDOM can be funny. Or would be funny if it people weren't getting hurt and killed over this kind of stuff.

I actually do think that, once a state is above a certain line (when most people aren't starving and education has started to spread) that even authoritarian countries will end up becoming socially liberal(er). Look at that story phant linked to: it's terrible that she was prevented from taking her elected post by a bunch of misogynists, but twenty years ago she wouldn't have been allowed to stand for election in the first place. Left to its own devices, internal movements in Iran will eventually change things there to the point where that sort of thing won't happen.

It will be painfully slow progress, but coming from within it will be sustainable; where the west tried to enforce women's rights in Afghanistan and Iraq, it may have made short-term gains, but we have also ensured that the cause of women's rights is now tied to foreign imperialism in the minds of many of the people there. This is why I am opposed to interventions in all but the worst cases (when you see that genocide or something similar is about to occur, preventing that takes a higher precedence).

This isn't to say that we should do nothing about this stuff going on in foreign countries: it is right to offer support to peaceful, progressive parties internationally; and to put pressure on repressive governments. But the thrust of the change must come from within.

lol I think I've kind of forgotten what I was trying to say

[RyanThunder]

That we can't fix these problems externally and things would all miraculously get better on their own if we left the less civilized parts of the world to their own devices.

I think.

[Oxymoron]

less civilized

[RyanThunder]

By that I literally mean full of misogynist and/or racist and/or murderous scumbags. What the fuck else do you want me to call it?

[evilsoup]

it will eventually get better so long as these societies are not sealed off from the rest of the world, because some of the so-called Western values (free speech, democracy) are things that everyone who isn't living in constant fear of starvation or violent death wants, and educated populations will demand these things -- and bleed for them in a lot of cases, and hopefully organise and form parties and force their leaders to give concessions over decades until their countries are reformed along just lines

note that 'leave them to their own devices' includes refraining from invading to defend the interests of our oil/fruit/whatever corporations, and also from embargoing them for similar power politics reasons.

[RyanThunder]

Eh, fair enough. It's not like we've ever legitimately gone to war with a workable plan to make things better than they were in the first place.

It's just going to take so fucking long

[Infinity Biscuit]

It wouldn't be so bad (though it would still be bad) if the kind of people who condemned foreign cultures to the point of wishing for foreign intervention and revolutionary change abroad also wished for revolutionary change at home. But they tend to be the kind of people who think the society of western Europe or North America is already pretty close to perfection of human society with just a few tweaks here and there to make it all a little better.

I mean, there's even a conveniently appropriate Bible verse for this with the plank in your own eye and all that. But I guess it's a lot easier to see the flaws elsewhere than the ones in the system that raised you.

[evilsoup]

Also I found this 10-minute radio talk to be a very interesting take on the subject. Can someone from outside the UK check it out and tell me if you can listen to it? I think that BBC radio stuff is available without region restrictions, but I don't know whether I heard that from somewhere or I imagined it or whatever.

[Oxymoron]

@ 'Soup : "media selection failed". I take it as the BBC not wanting dirty foreigners to enjoy goods produced with the sweat-earned money from the British taxpayer.

[Crazedwraith]

oddly i found recently that i can't access bbc worldwide content from the uk because its not paid for by the license fee.

[RyanThunder]

It wouldn't be so bad (though it would still be bad) if the kind of people who condemned foreign cultures to the point of wishing for foreign intervention and revolutionary change abroad also wished for revolutionary change at home. But they tend to be the kind of people who think the society of western Europe or North America is already pretty close to perfection of human society with just a few tweaks here and there to make it all a little better.

I mean, there's even a conveniently appropriate Bible verse for this with the plank in your own eye and all that. But I guess it's a lot easier to see the flaws elsewhere than the ones in the system that raised you.

How much do I have to bitch about our society before you're satisfied that I'm not just being some kind of nationalist bigot? Or did you just mean generally?

Besides, it's not like there's anybody who's solved these problems and can intervene to try and fix ours for us.

[evilsoup]

It wouldn't be so bad (though it would still be bad) if the kind of people who condemned foreign cultures to the point of wishing for foreign intervention and revolutionary change abroad also wished for revolutionary change at home. But they tend to be the kind of people who think the society of western Europe or North America is already pretty close to perfection of human society with just a few tweaks here and there to make it all a little better.

To be fair to those people, living in the UK is pretty great & I don't think there's anywhere else I would rather live. And the only places I would consider are in western Europe (maybe Australia or Canada at a pinch). There are still serious problems for sure, but for the most part the West is an objectively better place to live.

Of course a lot of the wealth that enables this stems from historical and ongoing imperialism so

[RogueIce]

Look at that story phant linked to

[Oxymoron]

Who are you ?

[Darksi4190]

To be fair to those people, living in the UK is pretty great & I don't think there's anywhere else I would rather live. And the only places I would consider are in western Europe (maybe Australia or Canada at a pinch). There are still serious problems for sure, but for the most part the West is an objectively better place to live.

[evilsoup]

To be fair to those people, living in the UK is pretty great & I don't think there's anywhere else I would rather live. And the only places I would consider are in western Europe (maybe Australia or Canada at a pinch). There are still serious problems for sure, but for the most part the West is an objectively better place to live.

get back to me when you have a functional welfare state

Look at that story phant linked to

oh whoops sorry

[Infinity Biscuit]

The UK's still a capitalist, imperialist kyriarchy, so it needs a good foreign interventioning to save the people from themselves too :L

[RogueIce]

Who are you ?

the real slim shady