New Testingstan

Agreed.

Riker as CO and Picard as a permanent diplomat or something. It always seem kind of absurd that a ship designed to be in deep space for ten years never had a diplomat corps or something.

RedImperator wrote:Still they probably should have let the guy keep the fourth pip. What with saving Earth and all.

The decision was obviously driven by real-life production concerns (nobody wants to write off the best actor and the star of the show), but I wonder if they couldn't have found some creative way to keep Riker a full captain and keep him and Picard on the Enterprise at the same time.

If this wiki is anything to go by, they probably could have promoted Picard to a Fleet Captain while leaving Riker as a Captain. I could see them as paving way for Picard to have greater responsibility in the fleet and training Riker to fully take over as Captain while staying on the flagship.

RedImperator wrote:Still they probably should have let the guy keep the fourth pip. What with saving Earth and all.

The decision was obviously driven by real-life production concerns (nobody wants to write off the best actor and the star of the show), but I wonder if they couldn't have found some creative way to keep Riker a full captain and keep him and Picard on the Enterprise at the same time.

Well, if you want to follow the example of the US Navy, the XO of the USS Enterprise (CVN 65) holds the rank of Captain. And I think it's that way for all of the carriers, and I'd say you could compare the importance of a GCS to a modern CVN, at least by that point in Starfleet.

Though to be fair I don't know if the USN had O-6s as carrier XOs back then, so they may not have had the "real-life" example to draw from. Although in ST5 and ST6, I suppose the Ent-A had Captain Spock as First Officer after Kirk was demoted to Captain himself. And Captain Scott as Chief Engineer. But then the Ent-A's crew was overrun with CDRs in positions you wouldn't think required them (Sulu Chekov (derp) goes from First Officer back down to Helmsman? Granted it's the Enterprise but still). And of course, you could hardly call their crew situation normal, in any event.

Wasn't Dr Crusher always a full Commander? And Troi IIRC became a CDR, though I don't know if she started out as one. If they had at least two other Commanders, I suppose it wouldn't have hurt to make Riker a Captain. Though maybe I just wish Geordi had gotten that third pip of his filled in instead of it being halfsies.

EXACTLY LIKE US NAVY

starku wrote:EXACTLY LIKE US NAVY

As it should be.

crusher was indeed commander

troi became it in season 7 iirc

RedImperator wrote:Still they probably should have let the guy keep the fourth pip. What with saving Earth and all.

The decision was obviously driven by real-life production concerns (nobody wants to write off the best actor and the star of the show), but I wonder if they couldn't have found some creative way to keep Riker a full captain and keep him and Picard on the Enterprise at the same time.

I know this topic's come up before, but what I don't think we knew at the time was that Michael Piller said flat-out in his unpublished book that the Locutus thing was the result of a contract dispute with Stewart:

Piller wrote:The idea of a cliff-hanger was actually a pure business decision. In fact, you could even call it a negotiating ploy. John Pike called Rick and said the studio was having a contract dispute with Patrick. “Come up with a cliff-hanger,” he said. “We may have to kill him.”

If things had gone differently, we might well have seen Riker's captaincy become permanent.

RogueIce wrote: Wasn't Dr Crusher always a full Commander? And Troi IIRC became a CDR, though I don't know if she started out as one. If they had at least two other Commanders, I suppose it wouldn't have hurt to make Riker a Captain. Though maybe I just wish Geordi had gotten that third pip of his filled in instead of it being halfsies.

Geordi getting made Commander while Data was still Lieutenant Commander would have been downright silly seeing as Geordi started the show as a junior-grade lieutenant. That would have been one hell of a leap-frog.

Troi got made a full Commander in Thine Own Self, after studying a lot and taking some simulation tests (including sending holo-Geordi to his death).

Crusher started the show as a Commander, and if I remember right ended the movies as a Commander.

uraniun235 wrote:Geordi getting made Commander while Data was still Lieutenant Commander would have been downright silly seeing as Geordi started the show as a junior-grade lieutenant. That would have been one hell of a leap-frog.

Is it much worse than him going from JG to LCDR while Data stayed where he was? I mean, everyone else got promotions except for Crusher and Picard, and they were already at "max rank" for what they could be (technically, as noted, Riker did get promoted, it just didn't stick).

Personally I always saw that as some kind of residual racism/androidism or whatever. Like that guy who wanted him property almost certainly had some backing at Starfleet HQ, and when the trial blocked them from dissecting Data maybe they held his career up. Or there was still some "Promote an android? I think not!" back at Earth.

And yes, he's apparently Captain of the Ent-E in those Countdown comics so apparently they got over it. Maybe it was Picard using his influence on Data's behalf or something.

uraniun235 wrote:Crusher started the show as a Commander, and if I remember right ended the movies as a Commander.

Well, I guess that makes sense for a CMO. Plus I doubt she had major career ambitions.

Though wasn't the deal with Pulaski in S2 that Crusher was head of Starfleet Medical? You'd think that'd merit a promotion but she came back as a CDR. But I could be remembering that whole thing wrong so I dunno.

maybe data's own insecurity

you have to opt in to the commander rank by taking the test given troi's story

didn't he object to picard putting him in charge of a ship in redemption part 2?


he might not have felt he was ready to dive into it

No, he went to Picard to ask why he wasn't given a command. He'd been in like 23 years or something by then.

maybe it is just a req courses thing

maybe because BUREAUCRACY data cants take the requisite exams

or maybe android racism

or maybe theres a personnel management and leadership test

which data fails every time

Well there is a course for pretty much every rank in the real military.

Aaron wrote:No, he went to Picard to ask why he wasn't given a command. He'd been in like 23 years or something by then.

wow, I got that completely backward!

'Gambit' also showed Data in command and being pretty damn impressive at it as well.

The other thing is, Ops is a senior command gig. It's like one step removed from being the XO, so I take it to mean a role that's basically training you to eventually lead to XO/CO's chair. (Ops is about managing all the different departments onboard a starship and coordinating them in specific ways when a mission requires it; as opposed to someone like Worf, who is more specialised in his role at security/tactical, or anyone who sits at the science or engineering stations at the back or the conn at the front EDIT- it should also be noted that when Data was abducted but presumed killed in 'The Most Toys', Worf got a promotion to Ops, and it was specifically said or implied this was a step up too)

The whole 'Data spent years and years in one job and never advanced' may actually be explained by Data not actually pursuing command roles. We already know Starfleet doesn't force promotions on people. It's entirely possible to stay as a Lieutenant for years and years, even decades (remember 'Tapestry'? Lieutenant JG Picard the blueshirt? That timeline was considered normal as the only thing that Q specified would change was Picard's life, not anything else). Riker said in 'Best of Both Worlds part 2' that Data's very nature 'omits ambition' so that could easily be a character trait that's well-known to the crew and may be written down on Data's personnel file. It was only during his tenure on the Enterprise that he began exploring his own personal development to such an extent where he actually asked Picard whether or not he could command the USS Sutherland. (Picard had originally intended him to be XO, with no issue on that front, there really can't be any issue with Data being considered for CO - of course, that douchebag XO of the Sutherland sort of torpedoes this somewhat, as he was pretty prejudiced against Data and the idea of an android for a CO)

i dont know how long a typical voyage for the ENT is, but if its several years for a voyage, then 23 years might be like 8 or 9 "tours". if he got promoted after every couple tours, hed be an O4 or O5, ie a commander.

on the other hand, after 23 years for a person, theyd be 41, if they got in at 18, and thats often around the age people get up to around command ranks

RogueIce wrote:

uraniun235 wrote:Crusher started the show as a Commander, and if I remember right ended the movies as a Commander.

Well, I guess that makes sense for a CMO. Plus I doubt she had major career ambitions.

Though wasn't the deal with Pulaski in S2 that Crusher was head of Starfleet Medical? You'd think that'd merit a promotion but she came back as a CDR. But I could be remembering that whole thing wrong so I dunno.

I don't remember Crusher leaving to become head of Starfleet Medical, just to go work there. I could be wrong, though.

Why would someone leave a ship to go become head of starfleet medical only to come back to be CMO of one ship

'Head of Starfleet X' is as far as I know always an Admiral position

uraniun235 wrote:

RogueIce wrote:

uraniun235 wrote:Crusher started the show as a Commander, and if I remember right ended the movies as a Commander.

Well, I guess that makes sense for a CMO. Plus I doubt she had major career ambitions.

Though wasn't the deal with Pulaski in S2 that Crusher was head of Starfleet Medical? You'd think that'd merit a promotion but she came back as a CDR. But I could be remembering that whole thing wrong so I dunno.

I don't remember Crusher leaving to become head of Starfleet Medical, just to go work there. I could be wrong, though.

Atl east according to Memory ALpha . . .

She briefly left her post as CMO of the Enterprise-D to become head of Starfleet Medical, only to return shortly after.

wouldn't there be a line confirming or debunking this in the episode where she returned

apparently it's confirmed in this episode but i can't be assed to watch it again

maybe she was acting head of starfleet medical

then when the option for it to become permanent came up, they found someone who was willing to do it

ah who the hell cares anyway

maybe she did the starfleet medical thing for a year and realized she hated being a pencil pusher and missed the adventure and excitement of being a starship cmo, so she requested a demotion and an assignment on the enterprise

hey i wonder if theres any precedent for that

prolly missed her son too

RedImperator wrote:maybe she did the starfleet medical thing for a year and realized she hated being a pencil pusher and missed the adventure and excitement of being a starship cmo, so she requested a demotion and an assignment on the enterprise

hey i wonder if theres any precedent for that

It's almost like Starfleet's personnel practices aren't even close to a real life military...

who knew?

RedImperator wrote:prolly missed her son too

From what I gather on the Internet, she'd be the only one.

i don't think she missed him all that much


http://youtube.com/watch?v=kymb61q4miM

Will Wheaton was all like

D: