New Testingstan

Oxymoron wrote:I may view myself as a Pacifist,

so how long have you had this self-delusion?

I blame ADR

But a bit more seriously :

For me, Violence is to be used only as a last resort when it is clear that any other course of action will be ineffective. Which in my opinion is the case there. As sad as it is for me to say it, the informations I have lead me to believe that the people we are facing now will not, can not be reasoned with ; or that trying to resolve the situation by non-interventionist means would create more Pain in the long term than an intervention would.

Note that I may very well be misinformed, and that it could be a very well done act of propaganda from the Pro-Interventionnist camp. It's possible.

But I am inclined to believe that one particular journalist, and the NGO he worked with.

if ya can't fix it, make it worse

Don't have one then. Without the US the manpower isn't there. And most of these are just clusterfucks, so no. Not worth it.

Well, whatever. I don't think there's going to be an intervention anyway. It's not in Europe's interests to get involved, and the African Union doesn't really have the capabilities or the political will to do anything as far as I know.


It just makes me feel kind of depressed to know how the civilian populations are treated by the warlords, and to know that Mali will transform into a new Sudan/Somalia, bringing down the whole region with it...

What are they fighting over; what does each side want to gain/not lose?

I don't even know. The Touaregs have always wanted to be left alone by the Central Government, and they sided with groups affiliated to "Al-Qaeda" to further their goals ; and now the tribal fighters at the service of the Warlords are imposing on the civilian populations a totally perverted vision of the "Islamic" Law that would be more accurately compared to the AngSoc's systematic attempt to deny humanity to the people of Oceania. I mean, from what I heard they're even worse in their atrocities than the fucking Talibans.

If teaming up with Al Qaeda is the main problem and just a means to an end for them, a potential solution is to give them a more constructive way to achieve their goal, so they don't feel like they need the help of terrorists anymore (assuming the goal itself is just, but it sounds like they are asking for self-determination, and that's something we can work with).


in other words, the best course of action (remember tho i know like nothing here) may be to pressure the Malian government to talk with the rebels and compromise. Perhaps even give them the independence they want.

Win over the moderates and you'll isolate the extremists.

rocky anderson floats my boat if you know what i mean

Oxymoron wrote:So, a journalist, writer and member of the French Academy, just went back from Mali and told on national television what is current the situation there.

It's basically 1984 meets Fallout's Raiders.


Well, I want to make an "official" statement : as long as the current situation continue, I will present no opposition toward an armed intervention in the Region to restore order and justice, be it by the African Union or the European components of NATO.

I will only oppose for the United States to be a part of such an operation. They would only fuck everything up, like they always do.


I may view myself as a Pacifist, but even I have standards.

Mitt Romney agrees with you that the situation in Mali is awful, and he wants to do something about it. But he's polite and will only send troops if you give him permission. 'Cause he's running for President and he approves this message. Oh yeah I think he knows we have boats that go under the water and other "ships" that these things called "planes" land on, which may be useful for the Mali thing. Well probably not the boats that go under water unless we plan to Tomahawk Mali to freedomization.

Well, given Mali is has no coast, being right in the middle of the fucking Sahara, boats of any kind might not be that useful.

But anyway, like I said I'd be VERY wary of any direct intervention from the US. Logistical aid, you're welcome, but ideally, if anything were to happen I'd like for the Africans to do the brunt of the leg work. The African Union has to prove its relevance one day or another, or they'll continue being continually fucked upon by foreigners.

Good luck on the African Union cooperating to subdue a civil war in a state with the population of Mali without unpleasant consequences. There'll be a grudge match between the survivors within five years.

tomahawks don't ask for permission to overfly airspace

chocula's point stand

i've spent the last three hours arguing about iran with one of my best friends on facebook

he keeps bringing up iran when i explicitly said i don't give a fuck about israel

and this other lady keeps interfering with barely relevant commentary and liking every one of my comments

i mean i appreciate the cheer section but throw down some points y'know?

also it'd be nice if you didn't shit talk my boy

then i discover she shared a link from my argument on her page (she is way more popular than i am) and has been cribbing my arguments for her talking points

i guess i'm happy she's spreading the good word, but still

w/e she comments that i'm a handsome young man on all my pictures so i'll live

Phantasee wrote:tomahawks don't ask for permission to overfly airspace

chocula's point stand

Well, I'm not convinced the situation will improce by going gun-a-blazing into this MurcaFuckYeah style. I mean, I don't think the tribals have much in the way of things that would require a cruise missile or an airstrike to be destroyed.

In my uninformed opinion, the situation would require boots on the ground to be solved, and Mali has frontiers with Cote d'Ivoire and Senegal, which could provide airbases if actions were to be undertaken.

adr wrote:If teaming up with Al Qaeda is the main problem and just a means to an end for them, a potential solution is to give them a more constructive way to achieve their goal, so they don't feel like they need the help of terrorists anymore (assuming the goal itself is just, but it sounds like they are asking for self-determination, and that's something we can work with).
in other words, the best course of action (remember tho i know like nothing here) may be to pressure the Malian government to talk with the rebels and compromise. Perhaps even give them the independence they want.

I'm afraid all of this is completely obsolete. The independence-focused guys (the MNLA) already officially split with the islamist factions, and now control a few scattered villages. The current guys in control in the north have officially stated they want to take over the entire country, which is hardly a position the government's going to be comfortable with negotiating around.

So now not only would it be "morally" justified to intervene, in regard of the UN Charter of Human Rights, it would also be helping a sovereign country member of the United Nation to conserve its National Sovereignty.

Oh well... I won't take it as a good news, but at least it clear a lot of potential issues surrounding any possible intervention.


Would China or Russia veto an UN-sanctioned intervention in Mali to restore the Government's sovereignty over its territories ?

Pedophiles should be allowed to give candy to children on Halloween, says the PRB aka Pedophile Rights Brigade. And who gets told they are a bad boy? The one saying, "That's a bad idea".

Oh jesus christ, don't fucking run off to what you think is your own echo chamber ever time you lose an argument on sdn.

protip; thats not what people said.

Crazedwraith wrote:Oh jesus christ, don't fucking run off to what you think is your own echo chamber ever time you lose an argument on sdn.

protip; thats not what people said.

That's exactly what they have stated again and again. And I may have lost to a bunch of dogpiling pedophile rights brigaders, but I still win by virtue of not being a pedophile defender. So you can fuck off too.

Not this shit again

Remember back when Mike would ban people like that immediately? Hilarious.

No I don't. Because I didn't really pay much attention to SDN drama, and I still don't.


My comment is more about "SDN-bitching" resulting in arguments over here than anything else, really.

But don't mind me. I'll just do my own stuff in the corner and skip the posts relevant to that discussion.