New Testingstan

Infinity Biscuit wrote:Are they sex-positive male "feminists"?

i don't know, i'm not looking through their post history

Well certainly not where it's illegal but I thought in places where it was the sex slavery angle wasn't there so much. I mean it probably still exists but they've got more options in going for help. *shrug*

I dunno I've heard both "prostitution is evil" and "prostitution is not terrible if legalized" from various feminists (of the female variety, since I saw IB's post when I hit Submit) so I have no idea what to think about it anymore.

RogueIce wrote:Well certainly not where it's illegal but I thought in places where it was the sex slavery angle wasn't there so much. I mean it probably still exists but they've got more options in going for help. *shrug*

I dunno I've heard both "prostitution is evil" and "prostitution is not terrible if legalized" from various feminists (of the female variety, since I saw IB's post when I hit Submit) so I have no idea what to think about it anymore.

keep in mind that even in places where the laws are lax like vancouver canada large majorities of women are doing it to survive rather than because they want to. globally, at least one survey concluded that roughly 90% of prostitutes would rather do something else for a living but are not financially able to do so, male and female. and then there's violence, rape, murder everywhere. so, my position is that the law should focus on the people actually doing violent things, the johns, and society should focus on ensuring nobody has to engage in prostitution for survival. also, treating sex as a commodity is a disturbing mindset that i fear has negative psychological effects on people.

See I think sex work should be open especially since I know a few who do it on the side for extra income and because they want to, but yeah the fact that it tends to be something that people fall into without any other recourse and are massively abused and sucked into cycles of shittiness and so there's obviously so much that you'd have to look at and I dunno and the people I know exceptions to the general trend

but anyway anyone who argues it as a "yes it's entirely a rational choice because that's how the world works right people never do things that hurt them due to being forced into it right" is a shitbutt

Things like this are fuckin tricky because there's an overlap between empowerment of women and women being trapped into patriarchal shittiness and as good as things seem our society's set up where the latter's gonna end up taking the lead all things being equal

The whole sex-positivity movement has that fine line thing going on ugh

Infinity Biscuit wrote:See I think sex work should be open especially since I know a few who do it on the side for extra income and because they want to, but yeah the fact that it tends to be something that people fall into without any other recourse and are massively abused and sucked into cycles of shittiness and so there's obviously so much that you'd have to look at and I dunno and the people I know exceptions to the general trend

but anyway anyone who argues it as a "yes it's entirely a rational choice because that's how the world works right people never do things that hurt them due to being forced into it right" is a shitbutt

Things like this are fuckin tricky because there's an overlap between empowerment of women and women being trapped into patriarchal shittiness and as good as things seem our society's set up where the latter's gonna end up taking the lead all things being equal

The whole sex-positivity movement has that fine line thing going on ugh

the last bit is largely because i've noted (in my limited experience) that most ex-prostitutes with positive opinions of the trade generally had a great deal of control over who they had sex with and, in at least one interesting case (a guy named scotty bowers) generally engaged in fairly emotionally intimate relationships in the process, so it's not rigorous or anything. i also think that sex work in general should be separated from prostitution because, say, phone sex isn't going to have the same problems as streetwalking.

and yeah, it's one of those things where you can't stake out a position without writing at least a paper to explain where exactly you fall

for mood whiplash, you can get seven role-playing games for any price at $4 US or above for the next week at http://www.bundleofholding.com

Yeah the people I know were in situations where they could turn down clients and were in control of the situation the whole time, which is the only way sex work should be.

Infinity Biscuit wrote:Yeah the people I know were in situations where they could turn down clients and were in control of the situation the whole time, which is the only way sex work should be.

I'd imagine that most people of the "make prostitution legal" camp probably tend to think that, by legalizing it, this is what would tend to happen by default. Sure there'd still be bad elements but that can be said of just about anything and theoretically all those Vice Squads that currently exist (in the US at least) would be repurposed to dealing with the latter while trying to uphold the former.

Around this time last year, a young woman who worked for the ABC was abducted, raped, and murdered while walking home from the pub after work. The nation lost its shit with sympathy for her family and anger towards the perp. Typical headlines had words like 'Tragedy' and the like.

Two months ago a woman was murdered in Melbourne's popular beachside suburb of St Kilda. Her boyfriend made the horrific discovery of her body and had to be cleared as a suspect. Nearly all of the newspaper headlines mentioned that she was a sex worker/prostitute. This article summed it up neatly:

"It’s all a far cry from the media’s treatment of the Jill Meagher case. We knew all about beautiful, young Jill Meagher. All about her family, and the life she had ahead of her. And yet we know nothing about 40-year-old Tracy Connelly.

Why?

Because Tracy was not as a person in the eyes of the country’s media."

and that case probably emphasises the limits of regulating the industry

cause the girls who work the corners in St Kilda sure are desperate

yet another case where feminism and socialism/social democracy intersect. A sufficient social safety net would mean that nobody would have to fall back on that kind of work... but then again there are cases like we had in the UK last year, where groups of men groomed girls... but that's more of a child protection issue I guess, and it happens now anyway.
blargh, this stuff is hard.
My first instinct is to legalise prostitution itself, you can make using prostitutes illegal if you want. The goal should be to protect the women involved, and that's not going to happen if they're afraid of the police... then again, arresting their clients would also drive them off, so maybe full legalisation would be the best way to go. It would also go some way to destigmatising prostitution, which is a good thing I think.

anyway if prostitution became legalised, I just have horrible visions of the jobcentre signposting the unemployed to a brothel for work
christ it could even end up being an unpaid 8-week work experience thing
I may have to write this up as a script and send it to Charlie Brooker

With regards to prostitution, there will always be problems no matter how legal or illegal it is. As long as paying work is a requirement for survival, you will see desperate people turning to all kinds of degrading work, sexual or non-sexual, in order to make ends meet.

I really need to do the sums on that guaranteed minimum income idea
I mean it's probably wildly impractical, but it appeals to me

If it's something that had support from both parties in the US in the 1970s, it's probably not a wild fancy dreams and fluff welfare idea.

Well, first approximation is to take the GDP/c of a country, take its poverty threshold, and see what percentage of the GDP/C you'd have to expend so that everyone receive every month an income equal to the poverty threshold.

Not that it's what would happen in practice, but this gives a good idea.

So, let's see... All sources wikipedia unless stated otherwise. Poverty threshold is 60% of median income.


France (2011) :
GDP/c : 42,377 US$ => approximately €30,000 at 2011 average exchange rate
Median Montly Income (INSEE) : €1653
Poverty Threshold (monthly) : €991.8
Poverty Threshold (annual) : €11,901

=> Around 1/3 of the national GDP


In practice, the guaranteed minimal income would probably be smaller.

My fear is that it would be seen as an excuse to completely SLASH all other social expenses on the part of the State, on account of how huge an expense the GMI would be. So, I'm not sure it would be the be-all, end-all in matter of socio-economic policies...


Realistically, I would recommend the GMI to be set at 1/3 of the Poverty Threshold, so at 20% of the Median Income.

evilsoup wrote:I really need to do the sums on that guaranteed minimum income idea
I mean it's probably wildly impractical, but it appeals to me

it is not only practical, it's actually been done on various scales and has worked pretty well

but there was this one experimental case in canada where they did it and collected all kinds of data..... but then the government cut the program before it was properly analyzed! however that story has resurfaced lately, the data is still in boxes and some university professor IIRC has cracked it open to finish the study

there's been a lot of talk about it over the last few years. methinks the economic woes have got people thinking again, and it is all really encouraging. to see people from libertarian leaning economists to the left progressives on grassroots talking about it, and these old cases being reopened by academics and a handful of politicians, we just might have it in the next decade

and that'd be pretty boss, an important helper for a lot of issues.

It's impractical in the sense that it would require one or more major cultural shifts in order for it to be implemented in the modern US. With the amount of influence the corporate world has on the culture, it would be trivial for them to poison the well against a guaranteed minimum income that is actually worth jack shit. Keeping survival tied to employment drives down wages, since the unemployed will be desperate for work and the labour pool will remain inflated, which is the ideal situation for corporations so long as their philosophy remains profit uber alles.

If one managed to get passed anyway, the first thing a lot of companies would probably do is jack up their prices, especially ones with humiliating or dangerous working conditions, since they would have to raise their wages in order to provide enough incentive for someone to work at some of the shitty jobs out there.

it might be passable in other countries though
it would be... difficult, but I could see it happening at some time in the future in the UK. We're probably talking at least 20 years really.
tbh I always kind of write off the USA for these kind of things, I mean you guys still have people dying of impacted teeth for fuck's sake
that said the only way to shift cultural attitudes is to get involved in protest/advocacy/etc.

anyway, a lot of menial jobs can be automated (this is already happening in supermarkets over here, with self-service checkouts), and dangerous jobs should be paid well. Improving working conditions would be a nice bonus if it did actually happen, and I'd be fine with paying a bit more for fish or whatever to make up the difference (says the vegetarian )

evilsoup wrote:then again, arresting their clients would also drive them off, so maybe full legalisation would be the best way to go. It would also go some way to destigmatising prostitution, which is a good thing I think.

destigmatising the johns you mean

anyway if prostitution became legalised, I just have horrible visions of the jobcentre signposting the unemployed to a brothel for work
christ it could even end up being an unpaid 8-week work experience thing
I may have to write this up as a script and send it to Charlie Brooker

imagine the infomercials

"why have boring sex with your horrible wife when you can do it with a professional! no more need to feel ashamed of your pedophiliac power fantasies, monetary exchange clears all guilt"

well
the thing is, if the johns are afraid of being arrested, I would have thought that it would force the prostitutes into more dangerous situations -- they'd have to stay out of sight, albeit not as much as they would have to under the current system (so however you look at it, legalising prostitution would be better than nothing). I don't know. It might go some way towards shifting the power balance.


aww shit now I'm thinking of an apprentice prostitution course
maybe a BTEC in Prostitution & Advanced Fingering
dear god I've got to write this
there would be a theory test and practical coursework
plus workplace experience
oh god
oh god what IF this could be combined with all that iKidney 3 designer body commodification transhuman shits

"why have boring sex with your horrible wife when you can do it with a professional! no more need to feel ashamed of your pedophiliac power fantasies, monetary exchange clears all guilt"

designer bodies of an 11-year-old with a moneyback guarantee that she's actually totally legal

*insert joke about Japan*

oxy don't be racist :[

hahaha
those silly orientals

in other news why the hell is :[ the fuckin devil smiley WHO EVEN USES THAT THING

There's a devil smiley?

Oh that thing. I was half expecting this: