Let's Big Orange this shit: rank the Trek movies!

[Bounty]

• The Wrath Of Khan
  First Contact
  The Undiscovered Country
  The Voyage Home
  '09
  Galaxy Quest
  The Motion Picture (DE)
  Into Darkness
  The Search For Spock
  Insurrection
  Generations
  The Final Frontier
  Nemesis

Honourable mention: Master And Command: The Far Side Of The World

[Stofsk]

Wrath of Khan
First Contact
The Undiscovered Country
Not sure if I want to put Search for Spock in 4th place or The Voyage Home
The Motion Picture
Generations
ST09
The Final Frontier
Nemesis
Unreleased 3rd JJTrek film
...
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Into Darkness. The ellipses all denote ten hypothetical future Star Trek films I've preemptively rated ahead of Into Darkness.

Can't properly rate Insurrection because I honestly don't think I've sat through a complete viewing of it. And I've only seen Nemesis once, and I wonder if I was being unfair to it.

Honourable mention is Galaxy Quest. Not a Star Trek movie but a good parody.

[Oxymoron]

For a non-Trekkie... Why the hate against Into Darkness?

[Stofsk]

The could have done anything with the story, absolutely anything - they went through all that effort with ST09 to reboot the franchise and go anywhere with it. And what do they do? They do a poor retread of Wrath of Khan. If they had done anything else, I'd not hate it as much. You'll note that Nemesis is down near the bottom as well, because in a lot of ways it too was a retread of WoK, just with TNG crew instead. It even had the whole 'beloved character sacrifices himself to save his friends' ending with the 'but is he really dead?' thing too. ID didn't even fuck around with that, they brought Kirk back immediately. Which makes me wonder why kill him off at all.

Also two films in and Kirk is *still* an irresponsible and reckless fratboy who is somehow still in charge of a starship and in command of hundreds of men and women. This is more of a complaint at JJTrek in general than ID specifically, but the writers have a very shallow understanding of the character ('Kirk's a playah amirite? Let's have him in bed with some alien chicks or something').

[Oxymoron]

I see. Thanks for the explanation.

[Ralin]

There's something to be said for playing to the popular Shatnerverse-esque image of Kirk. I haven't watched a lot of the original series and he may be a way more complex character than that, but the larger than life, constantly banging green aliens and hell for the rules version is entertaining too.

[Ralin]

That said, I did fall asleep in the theater midway through Into Darkness. Woke up just enough to catch the Kirk dying bit. Though that's more a testament to me being sleepy and having gotten up early than anything to do with the movie.

[RogueIce]

Also two films in and Kirk is *still* an irresponsible and reckless fratboy who is somehow still in charge of a starship and in command of hundreds of men and women. This is more of a complaint at JJTrek in general than ID specifically, but the writers have a very shallow understanding of the character ('Kirk's a playah amirite? Let's have him in bed with some alien chicks or something').

I felt like they really gave him a gutcheck though, between Pike chewing him out and then Admiral Robocop kicking his ass and sending a bunch of extras to their doom at warp speed.

Whether that lesson will stick with him remains to be seen. The new teaser looks utterly ridiculous (and not in the good way) but maybe that's just poor marketing and the end product will be different.

[Stofsk]

There's something to be said for playing to the popular Shatnerverse-esque image of Kirk. I haven't watched a lot of the original series and he may be a way more complex character than that, but the larger than life, constantly banging green aliens and hell for the rules version is entertaining too.

I can kinda see what you mean, but to me that's like the Saturday Night Live version of Kirk. The 'let's make him a joke' sort of interpretation. It comes from having watched the show and distilling it all down to a handful of scenes and acting like this is the entirety of his character. In the show yes he slept around but it wasn't like he was a womaniser. For one thing there was rarely a time he'd actually have sex, there's one scene that was certainly implied sex happened but this was 60s television, implied was the best we could get. But otherwise most of his romances were just that - romance. It's what gets lost with the joke that he bangs alien chicks every week. Yes he was good with the ladies but he also treated them good as well, and it's the latter that gets lost on people who focus on the first part.

Similarly the 'reckless thumbing his nose at authority rule breaker' thing is another thing that people misinterpret. Kirk didn't break the rules unless he had a very good reason. Sometimes he'd break the letter of the law to preserve the spirit of it. Sometimes he would disobey orders - because doing so kept his crew alive or his ship intact. One time he was accused of falsifying his log to cover up alleged neglect that lead to a crewman's death. And he was offered a way out by Commodore Stone that would have kept the service clean of disrepute but it would mean Kirk would admit to something he knew to be untrue. Kirk demanded a trial to clear his name because the very idea he'd cover up his neglect was offensive to him. At the start of Into Darkness nuKirk is seen falsifying his official report to Starfleet about what happened on the planet with the primitive civilisation - to cover up his bullshit.

If part of it could be explained by the fact that in JJTrek Kirk's dad died way earlier than he originally did and Kirk grew up without that stabilising influence on him, I might be ok with it. But Kirk's dad was never mentioned in the show so I doubt this can really be attributed to his influence. I bet all the money I have that it was because Orci subscribes to the SNL interpretation of Kirk. It's why you get scenes of Kirk trying to pick up chicks at the Academy or bang the orion chick in the first film, and waking up in his bedroom with two caitian chicks in the second film. Every frame in a movie is intentional. Those kind of scenes feel very fanservicey and not in a good way.

As for it being entertaining, maybe. That's a subjective thing and I'm maybe a bit too grouchy for it to entertain me. But it's not just me, one of the most consistent criticisms directed towards the JJTrek films has been Kirk's character. So is it really that entertaining to have a main character who basically behaves like a fratboy all of the time? There's more to the character than that. Where's Kirk the introspective philosopher, the guy who could argue with Spock not about logic but about the right thing to do? Where's Kirk the Commander who has to deal with his decisions leading people potentially to their death? Where's Kirk the magician, who could solve a crisis less often with his fists than with his ingenuity and brilliance? All we get is Kirk Likes To Fuck Women Amirite and He Also Likes To Break The Rules. It shits me because they threw out the old stuff to have total creative freedom, and what we get is basically the punchline to a joke.

[RogueIce]

If part of it could be explained by the fact that in JJTrek Kirk's dad died way earlier than he originally did and Kirk grew up without that stabilising influence on him, I might be ok with it. But Kirk's dad was never mentioned in the show so I doubt this can really be attributed to his influence.

To be fair, there is this line from the movie:

"You often spoke of him as being your inspiration for joining Starfleet. He proudly lived to see you become captain of the Enterprise." - Spock-Prime

While granted not from TOS itself, it does somewhat address your comment above, inasmuch as his father's influence was extremely important to him, and he would be trying to live up to that ideal, although with his own personality quirks.

Where's Kirk the Commander who has to deal with his decisions leading people potentially to their death?

Like I said before, I feel like his arc through Into Darkness actually molded him in this exact way, though of course we'll need to wait and see if the third movie keeps those lessons learned or not.

[Civil War Man]

It even had the whole 'beloved character sacrifices himself to save his friends' ending with the 'but is he really dead?' thing too. ID didn't even fuck around with that, they brought Kirk back immediately. Which makes me wonder why kill him off at all.

This is probably the part about Into Darkness that most bothered me. By bringing him back so quickly, killing off Kirk was cheap and had no impact beyond saying, "Hey, remember this much more emotional scene from a better movie?"

Not to mention the giant gaping plot hole created by them having McCoy literally cure death, so now they have to quietly ignore that as long as they keep Khan and his crew comatose and hooked up to IVs then humans are basically immortal.

At least bringing Spock back from the dead with Space Magic required a whole movie, psychic powers, and a cloned body, and the consequences of the act were still being felt in the following movie with Kirk's court martial and Spock having to relearn how to be anything other than Vulcan.

[Ralin]

Memory's a little hazy, but I'm pretty sure part of the point of nuKirk is that he's less mature than the original and a few years younger to boot. He's only a captain because of a combination of luck, unusual circumstances and natural talent.

Makes a lot more sense that he acts like a frat boy when he...probably literally was a frat boy until a matter of months ago, is what I'm saying.

[Stofsk]

To be fair,

I have less of a problem with the first movie than I do with the second one.

Like I said before, I feel like his arc through Into Darkness actually molded him in this exact way, though of course we'll need to wait and see if the third movie keeps those lessons learned or not.

It probably did but I was too upset about all the other stupid shit in the movie

[evilsoup]

Memory's a little hazy, but I'm pretty sure part of the point of nuKirk is that he's less mature than the original and a few years younger to boot. He's only a captain because of a combination of luck, unusual circumstances and natural talent.

Makes a lot more sense that he acts like a frat boy when he...probably literally was a frat boy until a matter of months ago, is what I'm saying.

I can't speak for stofsk, but I don't have a problem with Kirk being like that because it's not ~internally consistent~, I have a problem because it's tedious to watch

[Ralin]

I enjoyed the first and what I was awake for of the second, but I never felt Pine or whatever his name is really had the charisma to pull off a convincing Kirk.

Though the first one was also one of the first times the prescience ability I gained from watching Walker: Texas Ranger activated.

Like, one day I was watching the beginning of an episode of Walker: Texas Ranger where Walker and some other Rangers were raiding a warehouse full of dangerous drug dealers. One of the Rangers complained that he was too old for this and that it was a good thing he was retiring the next day. And then, for absolutely NO REASON I suddenly thought "He's going to die!" And then after Walker's partner Trivette chided Walker for not drawing his gun (which Walker felt was totally unnecessary) they went in.

Anyway, Walker single-handedly subdued most of the drug dealers with his superior martial arts skills, but right as they were mopping up a drug dealer the other Rangers had missed popped up and shot the old Texas Ranger who was about to retire. And he died and I was all like WOAH!!!"

Then years later when I watched the first nuTrek movie there was that one scene where they were preparing the away team mission to stop the Romulans from blowing up Vulcan. And there was a security guy in red armor who was all like, "EARTH FUCK YEAH, GONNA KICK SOME POINTY-EARED ROMULAN ASS! HOORAH!" And for no reason I thought he was going to die and a few minutes later he did and I just freaked out when I realized what I'd done.

I'd literally seen the future. All thanks to Chuck Norris's wise teachings and the gnostic secrets he worked into Walker: Texas Ranger.

[adr]

Galaxy Quest really is actually pretty decent.

But my list would prolly be:

The Voyage Home
The Wrath of Khan
The Undiscovered Country
The Motion Picture
The Search for Spock
First Contact
eh prolly Generations, and Final Frontier, then Nemesis, and Insurrection, though my opinion of all four is basically "meh" but they have their moments
STINO '09
STINO the other


Yes, I have an extremely low opinion of the new ones, I basically outright hate them. At least The Final Frontier has its moments and the TNG movies have some potential, but the new ones just suck. The 09 film was a kinda fun ride the first time, but as soon as it ended, I was like "wtf". And the sequel was just abysmal. I'd rather watch "And the Children Shall Lead" again.


I put TVH at the top because it might not be a flawless masterpiece like TWOK, but it is just so much fun. I enjoy the comedy and like the respite from violence.

[adr]

There's more to the character than that. Where's Kirk the introspective philosopher, the guy who could argue with Spock not about logic but about the right thing to do? Where's Kirk the Commander who has to deal with his decisions leading people potentially to their death? Where's Kirk the magician, who could solve a crisis less often with his fists than with his ingenuity and brilliance?

cheating on the test :<

I watched "One of Our Planets is Missing" a few nights ago and it is striking to me how much better this 24 minute cartoon is than the new movies... like it has to go fast to fit in the time, but it has some good Kirk.

[RogueIce]

I feel like I'm the only one here who actually thinks the reboot Trek movies are good.

[adr]

get out

[Stofsk]

get out

[RogueIce]

[Bounty]

I liked the first reboot movie. Great effects, great cast. Shoddy story, but good enough to lead into a series.

Too bad they took that potential and ran it off a cliff.

[Big Orangutan]

The second movie started off fair enough (with genuine fun and adventure with saving aliens from a volcano) but seemed to slowly implode completely on itself as soon as the supposed Khan got introduced (and we had annoying plot holes like the emergency secret Starfleet committee not knowing the concept of underground bunkers, etc).

Anyway here's how I'd Big Orange it:

The Wrath of Khan
-
The Undiscovered Country
-
First Contact/The Voyage Home/Galaxy Quest
-
-
Star Trek '09/The Search For Spock
-
-
-
The Motion Picture
-
-
Generations/Into Darkness
-
-
-
Nemesis
-
-
-
The Final Frontier/Insurrection

That's how I feel.

[uraniun235]

• The Wrath Of Khan
  The Voyage Home
  The Undiscovered Country
  Galaxy Quest
  The Search For Spock
  ST09
  The Motion Picture (I really hate that sound mix on the DE)
  The Final Frontier
  First Contact
  Generations
  Insurrection
  Into Darkness
  Nemesis

[Crazedwraith]

First Contact is worse than any TOS film?