Oh yeah thinking back to the backstory DS9 gave us about how it got to be where it was, it was due to Mirror Spock preaching peace and disarmament that led to the Terrans being subjugated and brutally enslaved.
Granted they were kinda evil overlords themselves before so probably deserved it a little, but yeah. Way to go Kirk. You got humanity in another universe conquered and beaten down.
Thank goodness The Sisko came along to break their bonds of suffering. Well, maybe. But at least he gave them a chance.
RogueIce wrote:Oh yeah thinking back to the backstory DS9 gave us about how it got to be where it was, it was due to Mirror Spock preaching peace and disarmament that led to the Terrans being subjugated and brutally enslaved.
Granted they were kinda evil overlords themselves before so probably deserved it a little, but yeah. Way to go Kirk. You got humanity in another universe conquered and beaten down.
Thank goodness The Sisko came along to break their bonds of suffering. Well, maybe. But at least he gave them a chance.
to oppress all the races they were oppressing before you mean :troll:
They never really explore the terran rebellion's victory. except in... EU Novels! everyone loves eu novels. Basically the rebellion gets split into the good guy people like miles and people who want the terran empire back. but the latter group are mostly idiots and get themselves blown up by mirror-Kurn.
To the Brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... Sucks to be you
Zod wrote:to oppress all the races they were oppressing before you mean :troll:
Exactly
But seriously, it looks like whoever is in charge of the MU will oppress the shit out of everyone else. Might as well root for your own species to be the ones on top, right?
Crazedwraith wrote:They never really explore the terran rebellion's victory. except in... EU Novels! everyone loves eu novels. Basically the rebellion gets split into the good guy people like miles and people who want the terran empire back. but the latter group are mostly idiots and get themselves blown up by mirror-Kurn.
Ah. So one hopes the good guy Terrans win in the end? Guess there's that.
But yeah, non-canon so was wondering if the show looked into it. I know STO's storyline has the Terrans coming out on top...but they're apparently "evil" because they try to invade the main universe.
And O'Brien's son is apparently leading them, which means his son turned out bad. Actually it's his grandson. And the grandson killed his grandfather, so I guess the ol' "backstab your way to the top" thing is in full force.
Which is sad, because I kinda like Smiles O'Brien.
i kinda think that the mirror universe is like an experiment by some godthing like Q to see if he can make a reality alike in every way to the 'prime' reality but warped and twisted
if there are infinite parallel realities then the existence of a singular mirror verse where everything is the polar opposite in terms of morality and such the like would suggest to me someone really powerful wants it that way
There was a TNG novel about the crew going into the mirrorverse (this was obviously written before DS9 btw) and Picard and Troi IIRC beam over and impersonate their counterparts. Picard did a little research because he wanted to determine how far back the mirrorverse had been 'twisted' and 'inverse' to his universe, and he was finding out shit like Shakespeare's play 'The Merchant of Venice' was significantly different (Shylock was found to be right and Antonio was put to death to give the former his 'pound of flesh') and the Illiad had Achilles kill King Priam when the latter came to beg for his son's corpse be returned to him for a proper burial. Of course, other stuff was more or less the same.
There was a TNG novel about the crew going into the mirrorverse (this was obviously written before DS9 btw) and Picard and Troi IIRC beam over and impersonate their counterparts. Picard did a little research because he wanted to determine how far back the mirrorverse had been 'twisted' and 'inverse' to his universe, and he was finding out shit like Shakespeare's play 'The Merchant of Venice' was significantly different (Shylock was found to be right and Antonio was put to death to give the former his 'pound of flesh') and the Illiad had Achilles kill King Priam when the latter came to beg for his son's corpse be returned to him for a proper burial. Of course, other stuff was more or less the same.
that's pretty cool. you win this round, eu novel.
/shamelessneckbeardery/ I really wonder what the logic was behind where DS9 went with their update of the mirror universe was. I don't mean that to be facetious or snarky, I am honestly curious why they thought having the empire fall and other stuff was the best story to tell that would refer back to one of the more iconic episodes of the original series.
I always thought it would be cool if maybe in the mirror universe instead of 'the Dominion' in the Gamma Quadrant there was 'the Union' on the other side whose Founders had used their genetic engineering to improve and uplift dozens of races to sentience and DS9 existed as a berlin wall blockade type situation armed to the teeth to prevent Terran Empire dissidents, asylum-seekers and blockade runners from trying to escape through the wormhole to 'freedom'. I think that could make for some interesting stories.
I think they wanted to reference a fan-favourite episode from TOS and at the same time do a 'twist' on where the Terran Empire would be by DS9's time. Kirk told Mirror Spock that the Terran Empire was doomed to fall anyway, so it could be that Spock merely accelerated that fall, or that he intended for it to fall in the first place. The real puzzler is that the cardassians and klingons are still assholes in the mirrorverse, instead of being nice guys.
The Dominion-as-the-Good-Guys would have been a terrific premise. In many ways, I always thought that the Dominion were basically a mirror version of the Federation anyway, just without any mirrorverse silliness attached to it.
So I watched Body Parts (DS9). Who knew Quark could be such a sympathetic character? Really, that ending scene was just awesome and so very touching. Followed up nicely by the little exchange between Quark and Odo in "Broken Link" I must say...
So does DS9 really keep the Ferengi as one-note? I mean, you've got Rom and Nog who obviously break from tradition pretty hard. Quark seems to want to believe he's all greedy business, but as BP and earlier episodes show...he really isn't. Or at least, he's much more willing to compromise.
Sure the Nagus and Brunt have been all greedy businessmen, but the Nagus is the leader and Brunt is part of the government body meant to regulate/control/harass so of course he would. But even the other Ferengi who work for Quark went along with Rom's union in "Bar Association" even if they were reluctant at first.
Just my impression so far at the start of season 5, anyway. We'll see how it goes from here I guess.
Yeah the Ferengi are mainly played for laughs but there's usually a serious undertone to their episodes. The better ones anyway. Nothing will really redeem 'Profit And Lace'.
To the Brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... Sucks to be you
So apparently Leeta was supposed to be topless in the original cut of "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." and you can totally see boob in the trailer. Thank you Memory Alpha for making us all aware of this.
But anyway I just started up "Look for Par'mach In All The Wrong Places" and I have to say the cold opening where Quark and Bashir listen in on Kira and O'Brien arguing was just genuinely funny. I don't think TNG came close to that kind of natural humor outside of Captain Picard Day and Picard telling Riker as the scene closes that he'd suggest Commander Riker Day.
If you look closely at Dax's swimsuit you can see the Speedo logo on her right hip. It could be that Speedo is still making swimwear in the 24th century.
RogueIce wrote:So apparently Leeta was supposed to be topless in the original cut of "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." and you can totally see boob in the trailer. Thank you Memory Alpha for making us all aware of this.
The background notes in the MA article on that episode are pretty interesting.
Robert Hewitt Wolfe regards this as his least favorite episode out of all of those that he wrote or co-wrote. Ira Steven Behr has commented that if he had to choose one episode he could go back and refine, it would be this one; "It was supposed to be a show that looked at 24th century morals and sexuality. We pretty much failed on both counts." (AOL chat, 1997)
Similarly, Ronald D. Moore says "it's a show we all wish we had a second crack at." Director Rene Auberjonois comments "it was not my happiest time as a director." Even Alexander Siddig disliked the episode, particularly his own performance. Nana Visitor had given birth to their son the night before he shot the scene where he and Leeta break up, and according to Siddig, he had never been so unfocused on-set as he was when shooting that scene. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)
In the eyes of Robert Hewitt Wolfe and Ira Steven Behr, the main reason the episode failed was because of restrictions placed upon how open they could be about sexuality. This was a show that was supposed to be examining sex, but it wasn't allowed to actually show any sex. As Wolfe explains, "kids watch this show, and in some markets it airs at five o'clock. That meant we couldn't show skin, so there was no sex. It became a totally asexual show, and once that happened the whole thing got flushed down the toilet because none of it made sense anymore." (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)
There are also notes about how shooting scenes outside made it even more of a clusterfuck, which is ironic given the shut-in nature of many trek fans.
RogueIce wrote:So apparently Leeta was supposed to be topless in the original cut of "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." and you can totally see boob in the trailer. Thank you Memory Alpha for making us all aware of this.
But anyway I just started up "Look for Par'mach In All The Wrong Places" and I have to say the cold opening where Quark and Bashir listen in on Kira and O'Brien arguing was just genuinely funny. I don't think TNG came close to that kind of natural humor outside of Captain Picard Day and Picard telling Riker as the scene closes that he'd suggest Commander Riker Day.
I wonder how much of that was the writers sucking at comedy, and how much was the producers being scared to death of appearing too camp.
Because it's DS9. Just like with the military and espionage and human characters acting less than perfect. Probably not as vocal as backlash towards "In the Pale Moonlight" because there would at least be fanservice.
Darth Fanboy wrote:Because it's DS9. Just like with the military and espionage and human characters acting less than perfect. Probably not as vocal as backlash towards "In the Pale Moonlight" because there would at least be fanservice.
I think u235 was responding to this:
RogueIce wrote:But anyway I just started up "Look for Par'mach In All The Wrong Places" and I have to say the cold opening where Quark and Bashir listen in on Kira and O'Brien arguing was just genuinely funny. I don't think TNG came close to that kind of natural humor outside of Captain Picard Day and Picard telling Riker as the scene closes that he'd suggest Commander Riker Day.
So I guess I can see where "Without Sin" isn't popular. It's not a bad episode but just feels disjointed. Still, good character work. The cold open had some excellent humor (plus, Morn gets a girlfriend!) and I liked Worf's backstory for why he's always so stiff and formal all the time. Plus, Leeta x Rom = best shipping ever.
Speaking of Rom, I felt for him in "The Assignment" and I'm glad O'Brien was a standup guy and gave the dude a promotion for his trouble. Other than that it wasn't anything out of the ordinary for a "Make O'Brien Suffer" episode. Well, again except for the cold opening with O'Brien and Bashir worrying about how they killed Keiko's plants. Bashir's "I'll find someone" for surgery was well delivered and again, genuinely funny. Their bromance is definately one of the best parts of the show.
Watched "Trials and Tribble-ations" again. It's the one of the only two DS9 episode I'd seen before starting my marathon from the beginning, and it's still just so much fun and has good moments. And I must say, the humor with O'Brien and Bashir (especially them not figuring out the turbolift) is so much funnier now that I have an appreciation of their relationship.
And on the serious front we got "Nor the Battle to the Strong" which really went into the parts of Starfleet's mission to defend the Federation we rarely got to see. And having Jake Sisko there for it was good. Really, it's as much the viewer learning as Jake did. The boy was, at first, excited to get to see Dr. Bashir work under fire. And why not? I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have some romantic vision of Starfleet boarding their ships to go out and save the day like the upstanding heroes that they are. Well, guess what: it ain't always like that. And frankly, I think DS9 does a far better job showing that than TNG ever did.
I mean, on TNG death was so...well, clean most of the time. At worst you'd get a scorched mark on the uniform. But DS9 wasn't clean at all. This episode definately showed that. It also explored the simple truth that, well, not everybody in Starfleet is a hero. Like the phaser-burn guy. And not everyone who gets injured or killed is vaporized or has a relatively clean looking energy burn. Jake found out that the truth of Starfleet's mission to protect the Federation is a lot harsher than the idealized notion of the Heroic Captain and his Brave Crew on the bridge of a Starship keeping the galaxy safe, one phaser burst and photon torpedo spread at a time.
"The Ship" was also a good episode for this, with the prolonged death and suffering of poor Crewman Muñiz. You don't always have an expert Doctor with a fully equipped Sickbay to patch you up and send you on your way, after all. And Sisko really shows the burden of command here. Because I'm sure any halfway decent commanding officer has always asked him or herself, "Was it really worth it?" when not everybody comes home. Just an all around good episode.
As a final little note, I will say I was slightly disappointed in the end of "Nor the Battle to the Strong". It was a very strong episode overall, and I liked it a lot. My only nit to pick is that we never saw Jake and Bashir really come to terms with Jake leaving the Doctor behind. We do know he's aware of it, because we saw him reading over (presumably) the same article Jake showed his father. And I guess I can see them not wanting to go over the same ground twice after his father's pep talk, and/or not wanting to end on a downer with Bashir being less than happy with him. I will say this, though: Bashir's face did say an awful lot with no words being spoken, and I give all credit to Alexander Siddig for his work there. While I'm sure the Doc didn't hold a gurdge, and was probably pretty understanding in general (Jake is no Starfleet officer, after all) it still almost kinda feels like a loose end. Ah well, the ending probably works better this way, and we do know Bashir knows the truth, at least.
