The Return of Testing Chat Thread

[Aaron]

ADR getting banned shocked me when it happened, but in retrospect I can kinda understand why Mike does it. Maybe that's because I've had years of associating with him privately as well as publicly, as well as having had some very fun and interesting conversations with ADR, but.... I see the two as being very similar. I've long noted in myself how the way I approach discussions with ADR (esp on SDN) was the same way I approached discussions with Mike. One of the things that drew me into conversation with ADR on SDN was how intelligent he was, but also how forthright and reasonable he was... as long as you approached him the right way. Go in iwth the usual 'LOLTREKSUCKS' mindset expecting it to be quietly taken and he wouldn't back down. He'd give as good as he took, and he did it well. He was opinionated, sometimes abrasive, but if you got past the attitude he was reasonable and fun. Which is... pretty much the same with Mike. He's very abrasive, he's difficult to get along with even if he calls you a friend (This I know from personal experience, having observed the conflicts between, for example, Wayne Poe and Rob Brown.)

I sometimes think part of the problem is most people view Mike through the lens of the forum, which is... a bit misleading, because the current nature and atmosphere of SDN is... not the best format to view anyone I think, really. We're not talking a massive difference mind, its just.. take away the adversarial nature, the conflicts, and the opportunity for yelling and insults, and he's not quite the same. Still opinionated, still blunt, but not nearly as abrasive.

The funny thing about ADR and Mike butting heads is... I see it stemming from them being way too much alike. Mike, on his board, is pretty much an alpha wolf, and IMHO ADR has always been another sort of 'alpha wolf' mindset. And when it comes to certain issues having those two interact is going to invariably result in friction because of that 'alpha-wolf-ness'.

now that isn't to say they're alike in ALL ways, or even most ways, because I don't think they are. But at least when it comes to certain key aspects pertaining to discussion and debate they have alot of similarities, and they're enough to stir up the conflict.

I don't see that at all. I see Mike as playing an "alpha wolf" on the Internet because he can't or won't in person. The guy lacks any of the qualities of a good leader, he just yells and insults a lot.

Adr just seems stubborn, he also lacks any actual leadership qualities.

Both can be interesting to talk to though and I credit adr as driving the resurgence in actual discussion on sdn rather then just screaming at each other.

[Oxymoron]

I cannot talk for ADR or Mike Wong, and clearly, I have no interest in participating in a discussion over these two characters. I understand Connor's point, as we have already discussed it at length before in our super top-secret correspondance.

If I had to make an analogy with the Wolf Pack mentality idea that has been brought up in said conversations, I could say that ADR's non-existence is the ultimate result of an old cold war (kinda, sorta...) that suddenly and irrevocably turned hot. The death of Testing, from my point of view as someone who ceased to frequent SDN with the Purge, is one of the collateral damage of this event.


In the end though, what is done, is done ; and if discussing what happened may be useful to learn how to avoid it in the future, continuing it to treat it as if it was still relevant to currents affairs is foolish, and can only breed unnecessary grief and resentment.


Well, at least that's my two bits on the matter.

[Aaron]

Aye, your right. And probably the reason why we all agreed not to discuss teo.

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

It might not be so much of a problem to discuss SDN (or avoid talking about the place) if it wasn't for the fact there was so much from the history arising form the past. Too much bad blood on both sides, too much antagonism from both sides... I think its just gone long past the point where you could ascribe blame to any one person or issue or whatever (OLD BOYS CLUB!) and its taken on a life of its own or something. And enough of that passion exists to make discussing the place difficult without.. strong feelings. And once Ghost Rider was gone it felt like the place took an even deeper nosedive. Sometimes I wonder if he was the last factor propping up the place, or something.

I always view this place as 'trying to be its own person and not 'lol not SDN' because the place can and does have some value (empathy, openness of opinion and discussion) but its weighed down by alot of the bad shit in the past (or lingering bad habits acquired from SDN.) Having seen the way obsession with a board or a person can ruin a place (or the people, and having been on the receiving end of something like that) I can say I very much hope it doesn't turn out that way. Maybe that's one reason I'm being alot more open than I usually consider wise. It's not something I'd feel comfortable saying on SDN, and I'm still leery of posting it here. (Hell I'm still leery of posting here period, and Rabid nad Aaron know why.)

[Aaron]

Man, Ghost Rider...anything?

[adr]

I see myself as being a meek follower, not an alpha wolf. (In person, I literally walk two steps behind anybody else I'm with!)

But let me tell you a story. When I was walking home from school many years ago, for a while, this group of punks was attacking me. On day one, I just took it to avoid things getting worse. On day two, things got worse, so I fled.

After a few more days though, I decided to carry a weapon, and this time, welcomed their attack. They grabbed for my legs, I swung my metal bar at their leader's head.

I could have killed him. Normally, that'd be enough not to do it. But I hated this fucking kid and in that moment, I didn't care. To be honest, I wanted him to suffer.


It's kinda the same thing in the internet scene. I might have felt one way, but to actually confront it meant getting over my general disinclination for conflict and I had to not care about the consequences of it.

Weapons are a great way to get in. You have the feeling of security to stand your ground, but more than that, when you're armed, you want to use it and become more aggressive. Hatred is a great way to not care about other consequences: if you hate your target, it doesn't matter if it* dies. It doesn't matter what it thinks. It gets what it deserves. And you just don't think or don't care about yourself when you're on that mission.

* deliberate dehumanization btw


I think you could see this similar pattern if you look at some of those vs threads.

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

Man, Ghost Rider...anything?

Huh?

* deliberate dehumanization btw


I think you could see this similar pattern if you look at some of those vs thread.

Its easy to dehumanise or simply pigeonhole anyone or anything if you feel passionately enough about it. I mean, look at Stark. He's still got that reflexive 'HE'S AN ASSHOLE' attitude (so does Mike) because of how he's viewed within a certain venue. Its a very basic human thing, so its not so much right or wrong.. but it can be deterimental to constructive, objective discourse of any kind. It's one of the big flaws of SDN (and SB, I feel.) I find it hard to struggle to find that balance between being 'critical' without going overboard into outright 'vendetta/hatred' territory, and even when I'm criticising people (again, the past hard sci fi universe vs soft sic fi universe debate on sDN) I kept jumping over that line and bashing down on the hard civs because.. well.. it felt good. I wanted to get some of my own back, even though I felt guilty for being harsh to them, and knowing it was wrong and probably unproductive.

[Aaron]

Anything new on him?

[Flagg]

Anything new on him?

Nope. They even demodded him on SDN a few months ago.

[Aaron]

Wow. I thought they would have left him that, as a memorial.

[Oxymoron]

Its easy to dehumanise or simply pigeonhole anyone or anything if you feel passionately enough about it. I mean, look at Stark. He's still got that reflexive 'HE'S AN ASSHOLE' attitude (so does Mike) because of how he's viewed within a certain venue. Its a very basic human thing, so its not so much right or wrong.. but it can be deterimental to constructive, objective discourse of any kind. It's one of the big flaws of SDN (and SB, I feel.) I find it hard to struggle to find that balance between being 'critical' without going overboard into outright 'vendetta/hatred' territory, and even when I'm criticising people (again, the past hard sci fi universe vs soft sic fi universe debate on sDN) I kept jumping over that line and bashing down on the hard civs because.. well.. it felt good. I wanted to get some of my own back, even though I felt guilty for being harsh to them, and knowing it was wrong and probably unproductive.

This is quite funny, actually... I have the exact inverse problem.


After years of having to deal with a number of shit IRL, I have grown to condition myself into treating anything, and I mean EVERYTHING, in a calm and rational manner - this include my own emotions.

It has made me a good problem solvers, helped me resolve a lot of my own personal issues, made me able to successfully socialize with pretty much anyone, and I am pretty good at convincing others of my points of view.

It has also brought me to a point where I have to follow a therapy in order to be able to truly FEEL emotions again.


The complexity of what it is to live as a human being is truly a fascinating thing.

[Oxymoron]

Also, a number of people I know IRL, which include people I am very close to, told me that I appear to be hollow and soulless.

You can understand my dismay.

[adr]

Anger and hate are a way to get out of that shell....

but also a path to the dark side, they are hmm

[adr]

so i really love the songs from ff8 and ff9

eyes on me and melodies of life

they're totally fucking great and i don't care what anyone says

[evilsoup]

I know this won't mean much coming from a faceless internet person, but I think you're a nice guy, Oxy.

[evilsoup]

Also FF9 is one of my favourite games of all time. Definitely the best final fantasy game, and I'm not just saying that because it's the first one I played.

[artemas]

Also, a number of people I know IRL, which include people I am very close to, told me that I appear to be hollow and soulless.

You can understand my dismay.

so, i was seeing this italian girl at one point, and to me (and all my anglo friends) she was the quintessential fiery, tempestuous italian, yelling and angry one moment, all cuddly and such the next

turns out other italians thought she was cold, and emotionless

cultural relativity, dawg

[adr]

Also FF9 is one of my favourite games of all time.

I'm really looking forward to playing through it again. I haven't played it for over a decade now, but I have the soundtrack and find great joy in listening to it.

God willing, I'll be able to find time to play the games again next year.

[Oxymoron]

I think you're a nice guy, Oxy.

Oh, I know I am one. I conditioned myself to be one, and still do.

What I am not, is truly living.

But I'm getting help, and time willing I'll solve that issue.

It takes time to deconstruct a wall, bricks after bricks.

cultural relativity, dawg

"Relativity". That's quite funny, because I don't act quite the same with everyone I meet. Which is kind of normal, when you think about it, but here it is.

But it is a fact, though, that I have the recurring problem of not being able to properly express my emotions to others, which make them think I feel none.

I feel like a dulled knife.

[RogueIce]

Anything new on him?

Nope. They even demodded him on SDN a few months ago.

Wow. I thought they would have left him that, as a memorial.

They took him off being a minimod of the mostly dead comics usergroup. That's not really much of a memorial, IMO. And I can understand why they would from an administrative standpoint.

GR's demotion from admin/supermod was about two years prior to his disappearing.

Anyway bringing up Ghost Rider kind of makes me think about the differing attitudes towards Darth Wong people have. Because I don't have the same opinion Connor does about the guy, not really. At least as far as his being a mod/admin was concerned, I was quite frankly happy to see him demoted because he was a bit of a douchebag. That it happened shortly after the whole DataPacRat bullshit banning thing is probably not a coincidence. So as far as my opinion of him as a poster goes I tend towards the negative view because that's what was most visible to me.

For those who saw him outside his being a mod, through PMs or other threads or whatever, obviously you'd probably think differently of the guy. But as far as the bubble of SDN went, I was not a fan of his.

Which is not at all to say I'm not sad by the fact he disappeared from his family and seemingly everyone. I do feel bad about that and can't imagine what it must be like for them, and I certainly hope that somewhere he's out there and doing okay and maybe one day might reach out to his family and friends so they know he's alright. Because even though I didn't think much of him as a poster or mod on an Internet message board, I don't carry that over into negative feelings of him as a living, breathing person and would never hope for bad things to befall him IRL.

So along that train of thought, do I think DW deleting adr was a dick move? Absolutely. Do I think he's a bad person for doing so? Not really. He deleted an account and the posts from an Internet message board; this is hardly a high crime against humanity. Like I said, a dick move, but nothing to hate the guy for. On the other hand it would be perfectly reasonable to say that you don't think much of his management style (well, from what you've seen anyway) or that such a thing would make you less inclined to want to post at SDN, which would be fair enough. But to take it to calling him a "contemptible person" (sorry Aaron not trying to call you out here) is going a little too far, IMO.

I guess I just don't see the purpose of hating someone over what they say or do on the Internet, outside of extreme examples like posting kiddy porn or something. You could certainly dislike them for what they say, roll your eyes at it, scroll over, get into flamewars, whatever floats your boat. But it sometimes seems like people take it that extra step into a personal dislike/hatred which is IMO going too far.

That's just my two cents on all the navel gazing going on around here. Take from what it what you will.

[Oxymoron]

I am so tired. I mean, literally, factually tired. It's been making me much more moody than usual today.

I should probably take this week-end as an opportunity to rest.

But there's so much to do, so much to see.


Blargh.

[Oxymoron]

Grabbed a copy of "Snatch" (the movie) the other day. Still have to watch it.

Maybe I'll do that this week-end ?

Meh. Watching people alone is kinda boring, after a while...


Edit : this is what you call a lapsus. I meant "watching movies alone is kinda boring"


Yeah. I should go to sleep and rest...

[Zod]

Also, a number of people I know IRL, which include people I am very close to, told me that I appear to be hollow and soulless.

You can understand my dismay.

Well you are French.

[Count Chocula]

I see myself as being a meek follower, not an alpha wolf. (In person, I literally walk two steps behind anybody else I'm with!)

But let me tell you a story. When I was walking home from school many years ago, for a while, this group of punks was attacking me. On day one, I just took it to avoid things getting worse. On day two, things got worse, so I fled.

After a few more days though, I decided to carry a weapon, and this time, welcomed their attack. They grabbed for my legs, I swung my metal bar at their leader's head.

I could have killed him. Normally, that'd be enough not to do it. But I hated this fucking kid and in that moment, I didn't care. To be honest, I wanted him to suffer.


It's kinda the same thing in the internet scene. I might have felt one way, but to actually confront it meant getting over my general disinclination for conflict and I had to not care about the consequences of it.

Weapons are a great way to get in. You have the feeling of security to stand your ground, but more than that, when you're armed, you want to use it and become more aggressive. Hatred is a great way to not care about other consequences: if you hate your target, it doesn't matter if it* dies. It doesn't matter what it thinks. It gets what it deserves. And you just don't think or don't care about yourself when you're on that mission.

* deliberate dehumanization btw


I think you could see this similar pattern if you look at some of those vs threads.

Not that it matters one whit, adr, but when I started carrying weapons on a regular basis it actually calmed me way the fuck down. I guess I was lucky as a kid, only mugged once (while skiipping school oops) and only bullied once, with a fucking knife to my throat but still just the one time and that shit got expelled and I had no trouble afterwards. I guess I didn't have the personal rage you had to develop. The few times I have had to pull a weapon, I didn't have to use it thank [INSERT DEITY OF CHOICE HERE]. I've carried for a couple of decades now, and while I have felt more secure I've never actually wanted to use them. If you still DO feel that way when you have a weapon handy, I'd advise not having one.

[RyanThunder]

If you need the capability to severely maim and/or kill a human being in order to be calm on a regular basis, either you or the place you live in are truly, deeply fucking nuts. I'm going to be charitable and assume the latter since you actually think its lucky that you weren't mugged multiple times as a kid. Have you ever considered moving somewhere civilized?