Lament 3: Cry Hard With A Vengeance

[Bakustra]

Something similar has been argued by a variety of civil-rights thinkers- what's needed are broad senses of equality, dignity, and freedom (or liberte, egalite, fraternite if you like), because beyond a certain point it's impossible to articulate, say, hairstyles as a meaningful civil rights issue, but at the same time they're often banned as part of efforts to get people to cover up differences (this also happens with gender and sexuality). In addition, more strategically, most members of the majority don't get many benefits from discriminatory power structures and this method may get them to support justice more readily because it's no longer viewable as a potential threat.

I put it this way: I have not in any objective sense suffered more or even equally than a victim of vaginal fistulae in Africa. Transwomen and said individuals are roughly probably about the same proportion of the worldwide female population. I don't want to be seen as more worthy, or more deserving of concern than she is--or less worthy or less deserving of concern. I want my concerns to be addressed by a broad-based feminist movement that regards them as equally valid, if less time critical in my case, and is generally and genuinely focused on correcting all of these issues through a broad push forward that doesn't make distinctions.

This seems more than a little naive but it's high-minded so I can't exactly say too much against it unless it's implemented and turns sour.

[Infinity Biscuit]

No, I tolerate them as being better than the alternatives. I was going to get insulted here, so I wanted to set terms for how to insult me without offending me at a viscerally wrong and inappropriate level.

Oh, okay, sorry about that. I misinterpreted things and I think confused you a bit with someone else I know.

Well, I massively disagree with that perspective, but I dislike the use of the term transwoman also, which probably has something to do with it. (Yes, even though I often use it myself because it's a lot less clunky than any alternative, I am not comfortable with the word, I just sort of tolerate it).

What about trans and cis as separate words from man/woman etc, where they're more like adjectives? I feel that separates them more from the core and diminishes some of the division, but we're coming from different perspectives here so I'm curious if it makes any difference to you.

[magic princess]

We all have to be naive about something. For me, it's genuinely believing in the 2nd Wave Feminist global sisterhood, if we can just get the propaganda message out right.

IB: I still have problems because I don't like heightening internal subdivisions in "woman", speaking from a feminist perspective, so adding even more entomological division categories seems bad, but it isn't as objectively terrible from the perspective that a woman is a woman and a ciswoman and you can't ever complain about the use of just woman alone, so ciswoman becomes useless. That's my sort of rambling attempt to explain. And I'm dropping vowels while typing so fast due to a finger hurting that my writing is becoming Aramaic, so I better leave it at that.

[Oxymoron]

Does use of a counterpart term for an already-prevalent minority descriptor actually increase division, though? From the way I see it, any division was already there, and the new term just makes it so that it's not opposed with, and thus set apart from, normality. Does the use of "straight" divide people along sexual orientation more than if it weren't used but "gay" still was?

How to put it... I wasn't trying to imply that we should totally refrain from making any kind of distinction between individuals, if only because in the end we'd end up with some sort of.... fuzzy ball of whatch'ma'callit-thingies... by-definition-indescriptible things that makes no sense.

I was just trying to convey that, unconsciously, trying to make a fine distinction between all the shades of the rainbow that makes up life as a human being might lead people to unwittingly wall themselves up in pre-conceptions, which could hurt their capacity to deal with the world as it exist.

[RyanThunder]

golly yes why i'm pretty sure if we just stopped squibbling and squabbling and held hands and started singing everything would turn out just great in the end

I'm down for that

But more seriously, if it helps transpeople feel more like people and less like some sort of subclass of people (in the negative sense) I will gladly accept being referred to as a cisman even if it bothers me.

EDIT: I should read Oxy's entire post before agreeing with him

EDIT2: Yeah, what he said.

[Nietzslime]

A few comments:

1. I thought Nietzslime was not male identified. I am wrong?

come on dude i like just started on hormones give me a break

[Oxymoron]

And now I am confused.

[Nietzslime]

i have that effect on people

[Infinity Biscuit]

And now I am confused.

Assuming I'm not misreading a lot Nietzs is a woman and has just recently started hormone replacement therapy to further feminise her appearance.

Edit: shit I hope you aren't trying to be vague and I'm ruining things or anything

[Losonti Tokash]

I always envisioned nietz as the guy from Strangelove so my world may be ruined.

[Nietzslime]

@ infinity biscuit: naw that's the skinny of it

i wasn't being intentionally vague but it's more of a joke for me really since i'm not out yet in any meaningful sense of the word but day to day i alternate between straight-acting, gay-acting, fem-acting, draggy, etc to the point where all but my closest friends find me frustratingly inconsistent to categorize

i find a perverse pleasure in this

it was also meant to be a joke about confusing peoples' sexual identities

but i guess you had to RUIN THAT

[Losonti Tokash]

excellent

[Bakustra]

@ infinity biscuit: naw that's the skinny of it

i wasn't being intentionally vague but it's more of a joke for me really since i'm not out yet in any meaningful sense of the word but day to day i alternate between straight-acting, gay-acting, fem-acting, draggy, etc to the point where all but my closest friends find me frustratingly inconsistent to categorize

i find a perverse pleasure in this

it was also meant to be a joke about confusing peoples' sexual identities

but i guess you had to RUIN THAT

welcome to the Q in QUILTBAG

[Oxymoron]

I always envisioned nietz as the guy from Strangelove so my world may be ruined.

^ This.


Anyway, I didn't know that. So... good perseverance ?

[Zablorg]

man what even is a gender

[magic princess]

man what even is a gender

A social presentation which may or may not have much to do depending on how biologically determinist or not you are with why some people pay twenty thousand dollars to end up catheterized in a Thai hospital bed for a week.

[Nietzslime]

man what even is a gender

it's

[Nietzslime]

I always envisioned nietz as the guy from Strangelove so my world may be ruined.

^ This.


Anyway, I didn't know that. So... good perseverance ?

i don't know if the second bit is in reference to me, but if so it's kind of embarrassing since i haven't really 'persevered' against anything

i have lead an incredibly privileged life basically devoid of abuse or neglect or discrimination or physical ailments and almost all of my problems are my own dumb fault/ the result of my dumb pathologies, depending on how you want to look at it

i don't know if 'persevering' against brain chemistry should count for much

like if someone with actual perseverance and strength of will like phant or the duchess got teleported into my body they could clean house like a motherfucker

[timmy]

man what even is a gender

A social presentation which may or may not have much to do depending on how biologically determinist or not you are with why some people pay twenty thousand dollars to end up catheterized in a Thai hospital bed for a week.

^HOW IT IS

Whole thread just got d'awwwww

Seriously I get an endorphin hit when people open up on this board so I hope I'm actually following it correctly

[Straha]

I always envisioned nietz as the guy from Strangelove so my world may be ruined.

One of the most interesting things for me is the disconnect between the image we construct of posters and how they actually look.

It'd actually be interesting to have a thread on that premise. Everyone submits images of how they think certain posters look and we compare them with the actual results.

[timmy]

Can we do that thread

[evilsoup]

I think it would devolve into shitposting pretty quickly

[Oxymoron]

@ Nietz : I meant that at the future tense. Like, hang in there, brace yourself, or any kind of expression that could translate, basically, "I hope you'll manage to do well in what's to come".

Or something like that. Language barrier, yadda-yadda.


@ Soup' : I dunno man, we could give it a try. .... *bet on Flagg for 1st shitpost*

[Crazedwraith]

I can't imagine the ideas differing much from the general theme of 'i thought you looked like your avatar and you don't' in the case of people with avatars you could think they look like, Might be interesting if anyone has a firm idea in their head of what oxymoron and evilsoup look like of course. Since obvs it would be impossible to be their avs.

And if my case, well i do look like my Av only half a decade older and less blurry.

It's similar to the effect of seeing someone when you've only ever heard them. Like radio comedians, I always freak out when I hear their voices coming out of people when they appear on telly.

[Big Orangutan]

Hey, Admiral Valdemar, long time no see!