The Testing Chat III: The Time of Great Chatting

[Oxymoron]

So, on another site, someone is ranting about how much Warhammer 40k's setting doesn't make -any- sense.

This can accurately sum up my reaction :

[Gands]

Thanks guys for the congrats above. I should have a picture up soon of me in my grad gear.

[Stofsk]

So, on another site, someone is ranting about how much Warhammer 40k's setting doesn't make -any- sense.

This can accurately sum up my reaction :

My reaction would be 'You don't say.' But in a sardonic tone of voice, obviously

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

People will always say a setting 'doesn't make sense' if it doesn't fit in with their preconceptions.

I used to be one of those who thought Gundam didn't make sense after all, and look at me now.

Edit : What kind of board was it?

[Oxymoron]

A My Little Pony themed board, where most of the activity come from talking about a fanfic taking place in a setting mixing both Fallout and My Little Pony.

In other, words

The Irony is strong in this one

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

I'd probably just chalk that up to casual fans throwing out their opinions as facts. On the internet you'll always run into casual people who say things without thinking about them, even on self professed 'intellectual' boards, nevermind the silly stuff. That's actually not as bad as the 'forcing preconceptions on a setting' idea, because the latter is much more prejudicial.

I doubt he even thought about the irony - it was more like 'only my opinion matters to me so what I say must be true' sort of way. Its really easy to express those kinds of thoughts without realizing it. (see above reference to me not 'understanding' Gundam - this depsite only being familiar with it secondhand )


I mean (just to get back at Stofsk for the 'you don't say' comment ) its equally fair to say Star Trek doesn't make sense (and its been beat up for it tons of times.) if you look at it in a certian way. but it doesn't mean it does not make sense if you look at it in other ways, its actually quite easy to make sense of it.

[Stofsk]

I mean (just to get back at Stofsk for the 'you don't say' comment )

why you little

its equally fair to say Star Trek doesn't make sense (and its been beat up for it tons of times.) if you look at it in a certian way. but it doesn't mean it does not make sense if you look at it in other ways, its actually quite easy to make sense of it.

The problem comes when people look at it in a certain way, either for or against something. I can look at it both ways and come out of it liking it more. Some people just latch onto the stupid stuff and don't see beyond it. Or you get the other extreme, where they asspull after asspull to explain some of the bizarre shit.

[Oxymoron]

For example...

The guy complain that Space Marines armors are anatomically impossible. Which prompt the following :

yep thats the one you showed me, obviously anatomically impossible...

And the voices of reason :

how it anatomically impossible? Space Marines have 19 extra organs stuffed inside of them.

It's almost like the fucking super soldiers have been augmented in some way. Crazy, I know.

[Oxymoron]

Stofsk changed his avatar.

This cannot be.

This can't be happening.

We're doomed.

[Oxymoron]

Also, from that discussion :

in other words its not so much psychic as it is reality alteration. if they ever get smarts then, oooo, they don't need to get smart, they just need to thin they are smart, and do it collectively

boom

goodby thingies

you know Orks' psychic field? Imagine what they could do with it on a grand scale...be glad they haven't figured it out yet, unless they already have. The Orks love fighting. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. Coincidence?

That's an interesting perspective, one I hadn't thought of before.

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

The problem comes when people look at it in a certain way, either for or against something. I can look at it both ways and come out of it liking it more. Some people just latch onto the stupid stuff and don't see beyond it. Or you get the other extreme, where they asspull after asspull to explain some of the bizarre shit.

Trek has suffered from literal well poisoning (at least amongst some circles) simply by virtue of its association with the ST/SW debates and vs debating in general. It is literally difficult (impossible?) for people to discuss the issue (at least some places) without VS intruding, and that has lead to alot of the needless conflict and stress over the issue. Heck in some circles its literally a form of groupthink (FUCKING TREKKIES. Or FUCKING WARSIES.)

If one can actually step back from the notion that one side or another HAS to win, the apparnet 'inconsistencies' that have driven alot of that argument are easily reconciled. For example I LOATHE the idea of so much of Trek's stuff being handwaved away as LOST TECH, simply because the idea has become an idiotic meme/trope on the same level of silliness as RULE OF COOL for 40K. If you actually think about it, so much of what Trek does when it modifies its technology to do this or that in a given episode (be it metaphasic shielding, improving performance, whatever.) could be ascribed to simple tradeoffs. Yes, they can boost shields 10 or 100x, but it doesn't mean that they do this without cost (despite the fact vs assumes so - both sides, in fact.) Maybe that massive increase in performance has a tradeoff in massively cutting into the lifespan of the device - the 'standard' settings may in fact represent the best balance between performance and component lifespan - but if you'r ein a life-or-death emergency wear and tear is of less importance than saving your ass. I'm actually sure you could explain alot of 'stuff they never use again' simply by that expedient or some variation thereof.. but it never occurs to the vs mindset because THAT WOULD BE WEAKNESS.

Same thing with STar Wars really. The assumption that every ship is going to zip around the galaxy at MAXIMUM FIREPOWER/SHIELDS/ENGINES without cost to win the debates is silly, yet it was amazingly pervasive esp post ICS.

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

Also, from that discussion :

in other words its not so much psychic as it is reality alteration. if they ever get smarts then, oooo, they don't need to get smart, they just need to thin they are smart, and do it collectively

boom

goodby thingies

you know Orks' psychic field? Imagine what they could do with it on a grand scale...be glad they haven't figured it out yet, unless they already have. The Orks love fighting. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. Coincidence?

That's an interesting perspective, one I hadn't thought of before.

Well pretty much anything involving the Warp - eg magic - is 'reality manipulation'. So much of what shapes the 40K galaxy is pretty much because the warp is a huge part of it, and it can't be disregarded. Thoughts and emotions shape the warp, and the warp influences reality. This is actually a fundamnetal aspect of certain tech bases (The Old Ones and the Eldar and to a lesser extent Orks) in point of fact.

That said, when it comes to Orks I think too many people go with a no limits fallacy because 'its magic, therefore arbitrary.' or something stupid like 'RULE OF COOL'. the unthinkingness can be found amongst many fans of 40K as it can amongst its critics. I've run across large segments of 'fans' in 40K who are concinved that because its ficton you can't make senes of it and shouldn't try.. apparently fiction is supposed to conform to a Bugs Bunny Cartoon.

[Oxymoron]

Same thing with STar Wars really. The assumption that every ship is going to zip around the galaxy at MAXIMUM FIREPOWER/SHIELDS/ENGINES without cost to win the debates is silly, yet it was amazingly pervasive esp post ICS.

Just look at any RAR!. Especially WWII ones, or any one involving fighting.

People look at the number, asspull the most optimistic/pessimistic conclusion they can from those, and rush to a conclusion that fit their pre-conception.

"QED I win, bitch."

[Oxymoron]

Well, I know that one of the principal reason people -play- orks is that they find them to be silly bloody cartoony fun.

Maybe that then run into their interpretations of the fluff ?

[Infinity Biscuit]

you know Orks' psychic field? Imagine what they could do with it on a grand scale...be glad they haven't figured it out yet, unless they already have. The Orks love fighting. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. Coincidence?

That's an interesting perspective, one I hadn't thought of before.

I've always felt the closest thing to a reasonable possible happy ending for 40k would be orks conquering everything, because then at least the galaxy would be full of people having a good time.

[Oxymoron]

Depending on your interpretations, this could even lead to the Chaos God being starved, even Khorne : I'm not sure Chaos is able to feed on Ork Mojo, what with them being a creation of the Old Ones.

[evilsoup]

Orks have their own chaos gods, gork and mork
Gork is the god of brutal cunning
Mork is the god of cunning brutality

[Bakustra]

Depending on your interpretations, this could even lead to the Chaos God being starved, even Khorne : I'm not sure Chaos is able to feed on Ork Mojo, what with them being a creation of the Old Ones.

Khorne and Tzeentch would survive, though greatly diminished, because they feed on all violence and change, and Orks fight and scheme, but their biology and overall characteristics would starve Nurgle and Slaanesh. Of the lesser gods, Malal and Necoho would also probably die out because of Orkish psychology, but Zuvassin would still exist.

I've always felt the closest thing to a reasonable possible happy ending for 40k would be orks conquering everything, because then at least the galaxy would be full of people having a good time.

There are several ways to approach a happy ending from the stuff given in the fluff, but they're all much more unlikely than Tyranids/Orks taking over. Reforming the Imperium into something better would seriously damage most of the threat from Chaos, since the Chaos Gods are formed from both positive and negative emotions and manifest according to which is stronger- focusing on change for positive ends or even for its own sake would make Tzeentch less harmful, focusing on moderation in pleasures would neuter Slaanesh, emphasizing honor and courage over brutality would diminish Khorne, and the overall better life people would have would probably make Nurgle shift from a toxic love to a more beneficent one. Of course, there's minimal chance that this would happen, but it's more likely to happen than the plans and fears of the Illuminati (eg using the Star Child to blow up the Chaos Gods/God-Emperor becomes new Chaos God ), and would be better overall than the Eldar plan of resurrecting Ynnead.

The old Necron plan to cut the Warp off from the Materium would also be overall beneficial, probably. But that's no longer a thing, or even likely to be a thing with the current Necron model.

[Veef]

to be honest i had the worst impression of star trek tng from all the nitpicking and mocking by teo

even though i had pretty positive memories of watching First Contact over and over again

[Sandman]

to be honest i had the worst impression of star trek tng from all the nitpicking and mocking by teo

even though i had pretty positive memories of watching First Contact over and over again

Which is kind of sad, to an extent. Star Trek: The Next Generation has many episodes that outshine that film many times over, and you've basically had that spoiled and fucked over for you by people who think that turbolaser isn't a stupid sounding word.

[Veef]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JhY9GOhFwN4

what about a TURBO LOVER!



also regarding Trek, outside of TOS reruns and Star Trek 6 being on TV a bunch, I watched a lot more Voyager which is as other have rightfully called it "Star Trek: The Product" so maybe i was too critical of Trek's flaws because that show exacerbated them too often

[The Spartan]

Isn't expecting 40k's setting to make sense like expecting a dog to meow?

[timmy]

That Space Marine image is horrifying and suddenly I want to start reading 40K books. That might be what I start on when I'm done with the Honorverse.

[Oxymoron]

@ Spartan : That's something I've subtly tried to hint at to the guy by telling him about the nature of the Warp, yes.

@ Tim : What do you find horrifying ? The disproportion with a normal human, or something else ?

[timmy]

Yeah, it's a body horror thing. Physical augmentation is one of those subjective things that depends on the intent; if you engineered people to look like that because it was the only way to ensure survival on some essential farming or mining colony world, I could accept that, as long as they had undergone the process voluntarily(unlikely, since these kind of mods probably need to happen during early development).

But Space Marines, from what I understand, know nothing but war and carnage. War is not good. War is evil. A necessary evil, as the failure of diplomacy, but an evil all the same.