The Testing Chat III: The Time of Great Chatting

[Flagg]

Frack you, motherfrackers!

[adr]

they asked me to write letters to my state senator and the governor too which i'm doing now. i wish my printer had ink, every time i roll past the staples i think about buying some, but i don't know what kind i need...

you know i could go write down the model number now so next time i'll have it.


but regardless they want to mail it out tonight so i'm hand writing it out and blargh writing hurts my hand, especially doing it twice


here's the text

Governor Cuomo,

I'm writing in support of a two year moratorium on fracking. New York has enough babies as it is, and we need to stop making new ones if we're ever going to get the myriad problems of our world under control.

I've been told there's other ways to cull the excess population, but I think you know as well as I do that banning fracking is the only way to be sure.

Yours in murder
Mr. Monster

[Agent Bert Macklin]

Work on your writing. Jesus.

"I've been told there's other ways..."

[evilsoup]

wrt death penalty, I've always seen some appeal in using gas chambers
or maybe a painless poison in the last meal or something

[Jung]

The second argument of course is that it's better to just live in a society that rules by fear than a society that teaches you to hate yourself. If you're going to be oppressed, why the fuck sign up to be your own policeman? But that's exactly how society has evolved in the past 200 years.

The death penalty should be used as a demonstration of state power in cases of severe crimes that threaten state power. The brothers Tsarnaev are the sort of simple-minded people I was referring to.

You're referring here to the Boston Marathon bombers, probably ideologically motivated terrorists, right? Wouldn't those be the worst sort of criminals to use fear-deterrance on? An ideological rebel sees the state as morally wrong and their own cause as moral right, and sees their rebellion as a heroic act of standing up to evil. To such a mindset being intimidated into passivity by fear-deterrance is selfishly putting your personal welfare over higher principles; even if you do succeed in scaring them they are likely to flog themselves into action anyway.

Also, I suspect the realistic alternative to living in a modern style society is not "like in a society that rules by fear" but rather is more like "live in a society that rules by fear and has more illegal violence" or "live in a modern style society with rule by fear plus the modern-style control methods" because fear-deterrance is simply not as effective. I'm thinking here of Steven Pinker's The Better Angels Of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined (ever read it btw? it's an interesting book) where he talks about how violent crime has declined over the centuries even as Middle Ages style public torture-punishment was abolished.

[adr]

whoa i decided to turn on ncis tonight and saw marina sirtis! i didn't know she was still acting

[magic princess]

Sadly, Jung, there was a debate on SDN that was never had -- about the theories of a historian named Luttwack by me against Thanas. His argument was that actually the historical record shows that intermittent regular strategic suppression operations were in fact successful in indoctrinating foreign tribes against raiding the Roman Empire. This kind of show of state power is what I'm referring to.

[Gands]

Was there ever a coloseum debate that didn't end in "I'll need an extra day..." and then just went nowhere?

[Aaron]

My god there is a lot of line by line quoting in there.

[Jung]

I mean, in all seriousness, let's ask ourselves (taking the actual death penalty debate away for a moment) -- bullet to the head, or two hours strapped to a gurney while untrained people fumble for your veins by poking you with needles over and over again? Which is more humane?

I wouldn't particularly care as long as it's painless or as close to painless as possible, and I'd prefer something that leaves viable organs and tissues for transplantation. From what I've heard of present lethal injection procedures, I think a bullet to the head at close range sounds like it'd probably be less unpleasant - I figure it'd probably kill me before I had the chance to feel much if any pain.

I believe you have advocated firing squad as a method of execution in the past - that I would rather avoid, as it seems like something that has a good chance of being painful, and you seem to like it for aesthetic reasons that I do not emotionally connect with (I sort of get the feeling George Orwell's "Wells, Hitler, and the World State" might touch on some of the emotional underpinnings that seperate your sense of the world from mine - my mindset being more representative of the sort of liberal Orwell critiques).

[Jung]

Sadly, Jung, there was a debate on SDN that was never had -- about the theories of a historian named Luttwack by me against Thanas. His argument was that actually the historical record shows that intermittent regular strategic suppression operations were in fact successful in indoctrinating foreign tribes against raiding the Roman Empire. This kind of show of state power is what I'm referring to.

So, what exactly do you have in mind? I'm genuinely curious here.

[Jung]

Does anyone have a link to that page that talked about fascism and how one of its aspects was the simultaneous belief that the enemy is a dangerous threat that must be dealt with before it's too late while at the same time much weaker than ourselves? I thought I'd gotten to something with Umberto Eco's stuff but I'm not finding that part itself.

I believe you're thinking of "Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways Of Looking At A Blackshirt":

8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies.

When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers of Ur-Fascism must also be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

I had always figured that the guillotine was one of the cleanest and most humane ways of killing someone, but the possibility that you may remain awake a few seconds to a few minutes after being beheaded makes me kind of squeamish about it.

Ever since I read about how the head can live for a little while after being seperated from the body I've thought decapitation sounded like it would probably be pretty painful.

I mean, it involves the equivalent of a limb being amputated without anaesthetic.

[Losonti Tokash]

tbh you'd basically instantly be in shock and then bleed out straight away so you wouldn't have time to process what happened

people with limbs traumatically amputated usually take a while to really notice what happened because you get overwhelmed

[Questor]

Why did I go into that thread? I know that the usual suspects over there are utterly incapable of seeing that there are alternate interpretations to the world.

I've known MP a LONG time, and she has never, ever, struck me as a traditional western "THE INDIVIDUAL IS SUPREME" person. Even going back to ASVS she always had at least a slight tinge of the idea of "the body [of the people] is more than the sum of its parts."

[Questor]

P.S.

The irony of this is that I was actually considering the way the philosophy of individualism and "corporatism"* interact in modern society on the way home from work. I was particularly taken by how much of it seems to be creeping in to modern political thought, and there doesn't appear to be much discussion on it.

The corporate personhood debate is a great example. If one assumes that a corporation exists solely as a body of people - directed in whatever way - then the idea of corporate personhood/corporate speech is meaningless. This tends to be my view.

* Not using the word in a traditional way - on this subject, please assume when I use "corporatism" in quotes that I am referring to the idea that a given body of people has a will/value/state-of-being of its own, that is derived from, but at the same time semi-independant of its members.

[RogueIce]

Putting the traitors of Alterac to death by cold steel always makes me happy.

[Darksi4190]

So the college just sent me an E-mail. Apparently there was a "non-specific" threat written on the men's room wall in the R building, and tomorrow there will be "heightened security" on campus.


I'm so terrified

[Darksi4190]

Putting the traitors of Alterac to death by cold steel always makes me happy.

Man. Warcraft II. That takes me back. That was my first RTS. have you followed the LP of the Blizzard stuff they're doing on sb.com? It's pretty well thought-out.

Actually I think reading through that is what got me thinking about my childhood and put me in this nostalgic/contemplative mood i've been in for like six months.

[Bakustra]

So the college just sent me an E-mail. Apparently there was a "non-specific" threat written on the men's room wall in the R building, and tomorrow there will be "heightened security" on campus.


I'm so terrified

this is the last time i rsvp for anything

god

[Flagg]

U ALL DED written in poop?

[Darksi4190]

I'll tell you what they said exactly

Ahem. *Begins reading in a pompous sounding british voice*


Additional security measures will be taken, including enhanced
police presence, at Center Campus on Wednesday, April 24, following
discovery of a dated, non-specific threat of violence written in a
men's bathroom in R Building. There is no indication that this
threat is credible.

The college will remain open for classes.

We understand that these security measures will create some measure
of inconvenience. However, we trust that you will understand the
need for additional security and whatever disruption it causes.

Again, while there is no indication that the threat is credible, it
is necessary that we treat it seriously. We appreciate your
patience and understanding, and, as always, please report any
unusual or suspicious activity to College Police:

Center Campus Police: ###.###.####
South Campus Police: ###.###.####

[Agent Bert Macklin]

I mean, in all seriousness, let's ask ourselves (taking the actual death penalty debate away for a moment) -- bullet to the head, or two hours strapped to a gurney while untrained people fumble for your veins by poking you with needles over and over again? Which is more humane?

I wouldn't particularly care as long as it's painless or as close to painless as possible, and I'd prefer something that leaves viable organs and tissues for transplantation. From what I've heard of present lethal injection procedures, I think a bullet to the head at close range sounds like it'd probably be less unpleasant - I figure it'd probably kill me before I had the chance to feel much if any pain..

Mental pain is still pain. Going crazy trying to determine when you're going to be shot sounds excruciatingly painful.

[magic princess]

But you know exactly when you will be shot -- Dawn.

After you have been offered a blindfold and a cigarette, and subsequent to a last meal the night before. I would of course not bother with the blindfold, and try to give the orders to the firing squad like Ney. The cigarette however would be really nice--no more need to worry about lung cancer, so the nicotine rush would be an exceedingly pleasant thing.

And sunrises can be sublimely beautiful...

One of the most inhumane things I consider Texas to have done recently was discontinue last meals for the condemned, it sickened me in a way that the death penalty itself sickens many of the people on TEO -- this may elucidate viscerally some more of my mindset. It was pretty much like denying something that was normative for thousands of years out of a trivial, small, punitive spirit.

Really, am I the only person of all the very intellectual people here who has read Mishima Yukio's major works? The importance to human psychological health of the aesthetic is, as Jung's link touches at, something people of the TEO's intellectual mindset love to ignore. It is a force that hyper-rationalistic people with feelings of superiority, social awkwardness, and a conviction in their individual rights and in world progress can't ever understand, and it scares them, because they can't interact with it. So they just assume it is wrong and will be quickly removed from society by Progress and is therefore something they never have to take the time to understand, even if they disagree with the belief systems and ideologies of people who adhere to its importance and cherish its value in their lives.

[Agent Bert Macklin]

But I believe some would purposefully keep the moment you're shot in the head ambiguous as some sick revenge fantasy.

[Questor]

Leaving aside the aesthetic, and I'd prefer dusk, somewhere overlooking the sea, preferably, myself, at least if I were still on the west coast, reverse that if I'm on the east.

Just to clarify, MP, when you talk about death penalty eligible crimes, it sounds like you're referring to that strange class of crimes that barely exists in western law anymore except for perjury and high treason, right? Things like Oklahoma city where a member of society (by their own definition, not society's) seeks to harm
the greater part of the society directly, not as individuals, for their own personal or collective gain? Its not just the heinousness of the act, but the intent and target of the act as well, or even primarily. Or am I completely misreading you?

If I'm understanding you right, you're referring to a vanishingly small set of crimes, and ones that are by their very nature only committable by the elite. TEO does not seem to be picking up that nuance though.

EDIT: Except for Simon, although he's picking up on the ritual aspect for some reason. It's very... Catholic.

EDIT AGAIN: Just saw your last post on TEO. I'd use "corpus populi" rather than "state" in this context. "State" is already too heavy with definitions in this discussion, and too many people can't handle an additional one that's even the slightest bit out of the ordinary. Come to think of it, тела людей, I think translates similarly way and has more of the connotation I'm going for, as distinct from государство.

Wow, I've obviously been reading too much russian if I went there and latin...