Testing Chat IV: A New Hope

[Phantasee]

Really Phant, this was the best you could do for a title? A lame SW reference?

Fuck you

[Gands]

I want Testing Chat V to be Mission to Miami.

[Phantasee]

Remind me or Los when we hit 50 pages again

[Jung]

So I finally got around to watching The Dark Knight Rises.

I can definitely see what somebody here (Civil War Man?) said about how you can interpret the film as having pretty strong conservative messages. It's all about how whatever injustice may be present in the present system it is fundamentally legitimate, and popular anger against it and the rich is a dangerous destructive force that is used by Bane, who poses as a Robin Hood figure while his real agenda is literally to make lots of people suffer and die (seriously - Bane is for terrorists and revolutionaries what Emperor Palpatine is for dictators). Bane seems to represent a mix of fears of Al Quaeda/TEH TERRORISTS and OWS/revolutionaries and left-wing radicals/socialism/general public resentment at the wealthy and the present system. Attempts to negotiate or deal with Bane are portrayed as misguided appeasement, because Bane has no actual interest in peace or compromise or avoiding bloodshed; his ultimate plan is basically "kill lots of people" (this terrorist really does hate us for our freedoms!).

Personally I think I'd have preferred it if they had Bane actually believe his own sales pitch; he thinks what our society needs is a good old revolution, with blood flowing in the streets - not so much because I sympathize with him or want him to be more sympathetic, but because it seems a shame to set up a strawman like "I SECRETLY JUST WANT TO KILL LOTS OF PEOPLE!" when there's lots you can legit criticize about that mindset.

Most of the bad stuff that happened because of him would still make sense if he believed his own kool aid. He commits indescriminate casual murder and violence because he thinks violence is necessary to create the better world he envisions and the ends justify the means. Things are bad under his rule because it turns out a bunch of angry fanatics whose primary skills and inclinations are toward blowing stuff up and shooting people are bad at governing. His followers are brutal thugs because they tend toward self-righteous angry not very bright people with a morally dualistic worldview and percieved scores to settle. His regime has farcical and cruel show trials because he thinks killing class enemies and anyone who opposes the revolution is necessary and just. The "he would never let an ordinary citizen have the detonator!" would still work because like a lot of revolutionaries he has a patronizing attitude toward the people he wants to help, considering them untrustworthy unenlightened cattle who must be guided, cajoled, and forced to the light by his enlightened followers. Even stuff like the bomb and opening the prison and arming the prisoners could still fit (he figures the revolution needs more warm bodies and beggars can be choosers*, he has wider demands for the US government and is threatening to blow up the city if they aren't met, and intends to carry it out if he has to to show he means business - hey, pity about all the innocent people who have to die, but sacrifices have to made, right?). Edit: it would fit with the "kicked out of League Of Shadows for being too extreme!" thing too. The League Of Shadows is all about questionable use of violence to fight evil, right? Bane was too extreme for them in that he decided the world's elites were evil and should be moved to the top of the target list, and turned the mission from "kill evil people" to a program of revolution and radical reform of society.

* Although personally I kind of like the idea of instead or on top of that having him recruit people from the general population of the city, on a "big tent" approach that he'll keep his ideals vague and hand out weapons to anyone who hates the system and is willing to fight for his cause and can refrain from attacking other revolutionaries for now. So you get a reign of terror that is both brutal and schizophrenic; right wing extremists go around beating up gays, prostitutes, Muslims, and "immodestly dressed" women because obviously the revolution means restoring the God-given morality of the Bible to society, while communist extremists loot and burn random shops and brutalize the owners because obviously the revolution means destroying the bourgeoise and punishing its members for their crimes, while people with various persecution complexes settle scores with those they believe have wronged them, while psychos go on personal rampages of looting, rape, and sadistic violence etc..

[Darksi4190]

Man that rhino poaching thread on SB is funny as hell. Like five posts in and someone has already suggested the aerial hunting of poachers with attack helicopters.

[Aaron]

May as well just burn the anti poaching budget.

[Civil War Man]

I can definitely see what somebody here (Civil War Man?) said about how you can interpret the film as having pretty strong conservative messages.

I did make some posts to that effect after seeing the movie. It completely baffled me how some people in that thread so obstinately refused to see a pretty blatant correlation. Bane was a barely exaggerated portrayal of how right wing media viewed OWS, in a movie that was still in filming during the opening months of the movement, as part of a movie series that has symbolically defended a lot of Orwellian practices implemented during the Bush administration (see extraordinary rendition and warrant-less wiretapping in Dark Knight). But because the real OWS protesters aren't psychopathic murderers, it's considered completely inconceivable that the movie's message could be interpreted as an attack on the protests, because accurate portrayal of your opponents is your first concern when making a political hit piece.

With regards to making Bane a more nuanced villain, I would have enjoyed your version much more. You could even have the prison release as a well-intentioned move that backfired. After all, it wouldn't be hard to view prisoners as victims of an uncaring oppressive oligarchy, with the serial killers and rapists getting out being an unintended consequence of also releasing the political dissenters and non-violent offenders.

As long as the shitty cop-out ending also gets ditched.

[Flagg]

Except that in TDK extraordinary rendition backfired by putting the Chinese money launderer into the hands of the Joker. And the wiretapping while proving useful, ultimately failed to prevent the actions of Dent. The whole point of TDK is that the Joker wins.

[RogueIce]

Fuck you

Really Phant, this was the best you could do for a reaction? A lame expletive on page 3?

[adr]

so i just went to a middle school production of cinderella at the high school

and you'll never guess what happened

well the slipper didn't fit anyone else cuz they tried to put it over their other shoes. lol what a silly thing

oh yeah and THE FIRE ALARM WENT OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i've never had that happen before (outside of actual school hours at least). at first ppl were like wtf but after a few seconds there was complete pandemonium an orderly evacuation

to the road right outside the door. i'm all liek "go under the tree peeps" but like almost nobody did. and i don't get it the sun was out we should have been fighting to the death under the trees

but anyway the school people are like move further out and the fire trucks are coming up and they couldn't all get in because virtually EVERYBODY PARKED IN THE FUCKING FIRE LANE

"yeah but when do they actually need those lanes"

apparently now! fire trucks are big vehicles yo


well anyway the firemen determine it was a false alarm and we all go back in and the kids got to go up and dance with their big brothers/sisters on the stage and two lucky princesses got to ride in the carriage and oh yeah cinderella and the prince got married but all i could think about at the time was the ongoing class war

the girl playing cinderella could actually sing pretty well too so that was cool

but yeah the fire alarm. idk what set it off, the working hypothesis is prolly some SAT kid pulling the thing

[Flagg]

I also don't think TDKR was particularly anti-OWS since it was based on the French revolution. And having Bane be for real would have actually been more anti-OWS than people claim it already is. But Bane being the muscle with Talia as the brains, bent on revenge (because Bane probably only cared about Bruce in that he hurt (and fucked) Talia as I doubt he really gave 2 shits about Raas or the League) works in a way that doesn't dump on OWS IMO. The thing is, OWS (really the feelings of inequality around it) was just the guise Bane put on to hide that Gotham was getting blown to smithereens anyway. The goal was to throw Gotham into chaos to destroy Waynes spirit and using the income gap to do it was just the easiest way to go about it as well as adding some nice social commentary. I mean it's not like they showed a single wealthy person who wasn't a dick (aside from Wayne, who went broke and Fox and the few remaining Wayne Board members from TDK).

[Questor]

Do we have to start the TDKR/OWS thing AGAIN?

Can't we all just agree that the movie was a badly timed, overly ambitious, rushed mess? Attempting the knightfall-no man's land arc without the rogue's gallery and without a trilogy (at least) was the height of hubris.

[RogueIce]

EVERYBODY PARKED IN THE FUCKING FIRE LANE

Should've towed those cars and sent them to the crusher.

[RogueIce]

Do we have to start the TDKR/OWS thing AGAIN?

Can't we all just agree that the movie was a badly timed, overly ambitious, rushed mess? Attempting the knightfall-no man's land arc without the rogue's gallery and without a trilogy (at least) was the height of hubris.

I thought it was a cinematic masterpiece.

[Flagg]

Do we have to start the TDKR/OWS thing AGAIN

Can't we all just agree that the movie was a badly timed, overly ambitious, rushed mess? Attempting the knightfall-no man's land arc without the rogue's gallery and without a trilogy (at least) was the height of hubris.

No?

[RogueIce]

So for all the Internet loves to talk about how the gaming companies are being dicks about NO USED GAMES FOR YOU why doesn't Pizza Hut get called out for making it a pain in the ass to eat pizza you put in the fridge?

Because seriously, whatever shitty wax paper they're using in their boxes these days keeps sticking to the bottom of my slices when I try to take them out, usually ripping pieces of the paper up with them that I have to try and scrape off. WTF is this shit?

[Questor]

As for Metahive (referenced in the end of the last thread): I don't consider him so much a try hard as an ideologue. His attitude's as dangerous as anyone on the ultra-right wing, and he just can't see the parallel.

[Questor]

Do we have to start the TDKR/OWS thing AGAIN

Can't we all just agree that the movie was a badly timed, overly ambitious, rushed mess? Attempting the knightfall-no man's land arc without the rogue's gallery and without a trilogy (at least) was the height of hubris.

No?

To which part? (Genuinely curious here.)

[Flagg]

Do we have to start the TDKR/OWS thing AGAIN

Can't we all just agree that the movie was a badly timed, overly ambitious, rushed mess? Attempting the knightfall-no man's land arc without the rogue's gallery and without a trilogy (at least) was the height of hubris.

No?

To which part? (Genuinely curious here.)

Both, really.

[Big Orangutan]

Do we have to start the TDKR/OWS thing AGAIN?

Can't we all just agree that the movie was a badly timed, overly ambitious, rushed mess?

It was weaker than The Dark Knight but I wouldn't say it was in the same league as (say PotC: At World's End) in being a poorly paced and over ambitious mess.

[Questor]

Both, really.

That's interesting.

To me, as released, the movie feels like two (possibly three) movies stitched together. It's really weird because there are times that the movie just seems to absolutely drag, but at other times it feels like steps are being skipped or rushed. (The Catwoman arc in particular felt odd, as did the whole (city descends into lawlessness in a matter of hours thing).

As for the second, that's probably just the fact that I like those stories, and in particular like some of the ideas inherent in them. No Man's Land in particular though seems impossible without at least a significant fraction of the full cast, which is probably why only imagery/ideas from it were used. The problem was, since the trailers featured the scene of the bridges being blown so prominently, I kept expecting one of my favorite stories, and I got something derived more from classic literature.

Not so much criticism as incorrect expectations on my part, I guess.

Big O: fair enough, but you've staked a pretty wide field there.

[Flagg]

I think you went in expecting one thing and got another so you're disappointed. Same thing happened to me with Inglorious Basterds.

[Crazedwraith]

Man, I don't know why World's End has become the urr example of bad sequels. I'd rather watch it than TDKR or x-men 3 or Spider-man 3.

And TDKR was just a mess. The main issue for me was the way it just didn't seem to follow on from TDK in any logical fashion, the same way TDK came naturally from Batman Begins.

[Oxymoron]

What was your experience with Inglorious Basterd, regarding expectations vs. final product ?

[Flagg]

Man, I don't know why World's End has become the urr example of bad sequels. I'd rather watch it than TDKR or x-men 3 or Spider-man 3.

And TDKR was just a mess. The main issue for me was the way it just didn't seem to follow on from TDK in any logical fashion, the same way TDK came naturally from Batman Begins.

How is that? TDKR shows a broken Wayne and a Gordon who sold his soul for a lie. Because TDK did not have a happy ending. Not even close.