Testing Chat IV: A New Hope

[evilsoup]

well obviously I don't know the context, but it just sounds like smalltalk to me

[RogueIce]

anyway, is STD worth watching? I found the first Star Trek reboot to be a completely charmless snorefest (worse that Nemesis, even) and the trailer for STD makes it look pretty terrible. But then, trailers make most films look terrible, so I'd like some opinions of people who've seen the film.

As long as you don't go into it expecting anything more than a popcorn action movie I'd say it's pretty watchable.

I thought it was the bee's knees.

[evilsoup]

yeah well you like mlp so your opinion is worthless.

[RogueIce]

I see we are at an impasse, good sir.

[Darksi4190]

Is the Spoony Experiment web site down for anyone else? I wanted to see if he'd posted the actual ending of his FFXIII review

[RogueIce]

Luckily for you, he posts on YouTube these days.

[Questor]

anyway, is STD worth watching? I found the first Star Trek reboot to be a completely charmless snorefest (worse that Nemesis, even) and the trailer for STD makes it look pretty terrible. But then, trailers make most films look terrible, so I'd like some opinions of people who've seen the film.

As long as you don't go into it expecting anything more than a popcorn action movie I'd say it's pretty watchable.

I thought it was the bee's knees.

I was actually very impressed. It ended up having some of the problems I expected when I heard that one of the villains might be Khan, but it dealt with most of them (at least for those familiar enough with Space Seed and STII, I know exactly why the reviewers hate it though). It also - possibly inadvertently - dealt with some of my criticisms of Trek(2009) by providing a clearer view of the universe.

In many ways, I think the stories that they can tell with this crew are FAR closer to the ideal of TNG than even TNG was able to achieve outside a handful of moments of greatness.

As for character development, at the end of this movie, I can accept the crew as being ready to START the 30-40 year trek we had with them. They aren't the legends they'll become, but they're ready to start the journey.

From a ST mythos standpoint, I'm curious if they'll use as the stunt for the next one. This multi-verse heavy approach is begging for the Organians, Trelane, the wormhole aliens, or even... Q. Q's presence could even be used to further clean up some of the lingering plot holes, perhaps with him maneuvering them into place for something, perhaps even a TNG crossover. I'm not sure where they want to go with this but I could see the old Trek doing it. I'm just not sure how good it would be.

[Jung]

Taken from a post I just wrote on SB:

If we're going to talk about Star Trek and surprisingly regressive tendencies in SF, the SF fandom phenomenon of reinterpreting the TNG Federation as some kind of communist dystopia (see: SDN, TGG) seems rather relevant and interesting, because it's hard not to see it as some people who like SF nonetheless seeing an attempt at portraying a radically different and better society and reacting by rebelling against the idea. Like they're cool with the pew pew bigaton whizz bang tech side of SF, but show them speculation about equivalent improvement in the social realm and they want to dismiss it by portraying it as really evil or inferior. I wonder how much of this has to do with said speculation being opposed to certain conservative notions of how the world works, like the idea that liberal democratic capitalism represents the apex of human sociopolitical development and the idea that many of the flaws of society are inevitable results of flawed human nature rather than correctable institutional or cultural problems. It's interesting that it comes down to a Star Wars vs. Star Trek axis, because Star Wars is a great example of "the future will be just like the present, or the past, but in space, with lasers" - and at that where this overlaps with the SW fandom it seems to do so at the portions of the fandom that have a certain admiration for the Empire, rather than seeing it as the fundamentally evil fascist dystopia led by an essentially Satanic figure that we see presented in the movies.

I legit think this is kind of an interesting sociological/literary phenomenon. Any thoughts on it?

[Flagg]

Taken from a post I just wrote on SB:

If we're going to talk about Star Trek and surprisingly regressive tendencies in SF, the SF fandom phenomenon of reinterpreting the TNG Federation as some kind of communist dystopia (see: SDN, TGG) seems rather relevant and interesting, because it's hard not to see it as some people who like SF nonetheless seeing an attempt at portraying a radically different and better society and reacting by rebelling against the idea. Like they're cool with the pew pew bigaton whizz bang tech side of SF, but show them speculation about equivalent improvement in the social realm and they want to dismiss it by portraying it as really evil or inferior. I wonder how much of this has to do with said speculation being opposed to certain conservative notions of how the world works, like the idea that liberal democratic capitalism represents the apex of human sociopolitical development and the idea that many of the flaws of society are inevitable results of flawed human nature rather than correctable institutional or cultural problems. It's interesting that it comes down to a Star Wars vs. Star Trek axis, because Star Wars is a great example of "the future will be just like the present, or the past, but in space, with lasers" - and at that where this overlaps with the SW fandom it seems to do so at the portions of the fandom that have a certain admiration for the Empire, rather than seeing it as the fundamentally evil fascist dystopia led by an essentially Satanic figure that we see presented in the movies.

I legit think this is kind of an interesting sociological/literary phenomenon. Any thoughts on it?

I've always marveled at how the Empire apologists arguments always were in synch with Nazi apologist arguments. That and the fucking weird amount of conservatives who just love ST despite its entire message being contrary to their views. I mean you can't even say well maybe they just like starfleet and its militaristic nature because aside from a few instances, starfleet is and always has been pretty much exploration oriented.

[Flagg]

What's TGG btw?

[RogueIce]

A super crossover fanfic universe thingy. Duchess could tell you way more about it when she happens by, I'm sure. You can see various stories set in the universe around the Fanfic forum.

[RogueIce]

Also Jung, you should have included stuff about "lol transhumanism ftw" in your post.

[Jung]

I've always marveled at how the Empire apologists arguments always were in synch with Nazi apologist arguments.

Well, the Empire is pretty obviously fascist, so that doesn't seem surprising to me. The Imperial apologism phenomenon seems rather interesting to me - I mean, yeah, it's kind of "SF fans often have conservative or regressive and authoritarian tendencies, more on this shocking development at 11", but it also seems like something that might be interesting to probe in more detail than that. What makes somebody take a look at something like the Empire in SW and find it appealing? Is it the aesthetics? The power? The promise of membership in a powerful and agentic band of brothers? The promise of being able to serve something greater than yourself? The offer of protection from people who scare or hurt you by a liberty-destroying dictatorship that will enforce some vision of harmonious social relations on everybody (I suspect this is a big component of nerd authoritarianism)? I suspect there's quite a bit of overlap with the things that draw people to authoritarianism and fascism in RL.

I had a conversation with Marina on SB a little while back that was getting into this territory, but we never did get around to talking about what she saw in the Empire besides "evil fascist dictatorship led by evil space wizard who basically worships evil."

A super crossover fanfic universe thingy. Duchess could tell you way more about it when she happens by, I'm sure. You can see various stories set in the universe around the Fanfic forum.

Yeah, it's a megacrossover on SB and SDN. Though it kind of seems like half the time the authors are mostly using it as an excuse to write about their own personal settings.

It also kind of reads like "exhibit A for conservative and regressive tendencies in SF" - when the Federation from Star Trek ends up being portrayed less kindly than a bunch of monarchist space elves with a society that is basically modelled on the Middle Ages, where you can get a torture-death execution for spreading a religion the leadership doesn't like and saying bad stuff about their unelected hereditary leader*, well...

* OK, that guy did lots of bad stuff, but as I remember I'm p sure the execution was legally for being a heretic and saying bad stuff about the Empress, not the actually bad stuff he did like being complicit in genocide. That's still pretty disturbing...

Also Jung, you should have included stuff about "lol transhumanism ftw" in your post.

You mean this?

I'm not sure Star Trek's bioconservative elements were really hypocrisy either; Star Trek is about an optimistic vision of humanity as fundamentally improveable, perhaps perfectable, as is; that humanity's problems are fundamentally a result of lack of knowledge and application of that knowledge. Transhumanism is arguably subversive to that message, because it implies that this better society may have been created by changing human nature, and therefore be fundamentally inaccessible to the humanity of today (except by changing our nature). You can certainly take issue with that perspective, but I don't see how it's inconsistent or hypocritical.

[Flagg]

That sentence is missing the word obliviously.

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

Imperial apologism was basically taking the concept that 'the Empire might not be all bad' and then tryin gto translate it into a justifcation that the Empire really wasn't a bad guy. Saying that the GE may not be simplisticaly black/white is one thing, but when you're trying to basically flip the the signs as it were, its basically become an attempt to justify preconceptions or prejudices. you're basically shifting from a approaching things in a relative perspective and imposing a totally new sort of absolute.

Prejudice and preconception are some of the most dangerous things to encounter in any sort of venture that has an element of tribalism (sports and gaming, political or religious discussions, etc.). Spoonist had some interesting thoughts (for me at least) here and whilst I am sure it may be self evident for some I foudn it rather illuminating because while I realized bits and pieces of it, I had never conceived of it in that sort of coherent form, (in the case of fiction if you replace 'racism' with a more neutral term 'bias' you can see that alot of the mindsets and habits that apply to things like nationalism, racism, sexism, etc. can also apply to the various 'factional' aspects inherent in sci fi discussions and vs debates.)

Edit: A better example of both in relation to one another might be looking at how pro-Imperium fans view the Imperium itself, especially when interacting with other franchises/factions both within and without 40K. Esp the Tau. I've noticed that whilst the Imperium is fundamentally a mixed bag 'gray area' sort of thing (its got some good aspects but lots of negative aspects too) alot of the pro-Imperium sorts will try to minimize the negative aspects and over-emphasize the positive ones (to be fair you find this amongst some of the pro-Tau side too) and to an outside observer the tribalism can be very evident.

Part of me suspects that its a defense mechanism. We don't like to consider that we may have what is often conceived of as 'bad' traits or habits, or that things we like might be bad (because that may say unpleasant things about ourselves.) so we react defensively to it (or just enforce denial.) Especially if you don't consider the 'why' of such things.

[RogueIce]

Also Jung, you should have included stuff about "lol transhumanism ftw" in your post.

You mean this?

I'm not sure Star Trek's bioconservative elements were really hypocrisy either; Star Trek is about an optimistic vision of humanity as fundamentally improveable, perhaps perfectable, as is; that humanity's problems are fundamentally a result of lack of knowledge and application of that knowledge. Transhumanism is arguably subversive to that message, because it implies that this better society may have been created by changing human nature, and therefore be fundamentally inaccessible to the humanity of today (except by changing our nature). You can certainly take issue with that perspective, but I don't see how it's inconsistent or hypocritical.

Yes. Because I never want to miss a chance to put down transhumanism.

But seriously the question there for ST is...why do they need to be genetic supermen? When your medical technology can cure...whatever that late-stage, clearly painful and terminal condition was in STIV with like a couple pills, why should you bother with robot bodies and shit?

I mean most of the time their medical science fails is through violent action or Random Space Anomalies and there's no guarantee a superman like Kahn would survive getting phased through the floor better than an average human.

Unless you're a bunch of robots of course, but then you're not about humanity anymore are you. Also I think it sort of cheapens the drama and danger your characters face if they're inputted the infinite lives cheat code of uploading and clones bodies.

Though I'm sure some nerd wanker will go on about their favorite SF author and/or anime that "did it right" when it comes to uploads, robo-bodies, etc.

[RogueIce]

What makes somebody take a look at something like the Empire in SW and find it appealing? Is it the aesthetics?

Pretty much this and only this, at least for me. Star Destroyers look cool, the uniforms are snazzy and the armored soldier thing is pretty sweet.

Granted by the time I'm done with it it'd look nothing like the classic Star Wars Empire outside of general ship design. The stormies would be "less evil" without the skull inspired helmets and probably look more like clone troopers, the uniforms would still be black but probably somewhat less Nazi, though I like the choker collars and high boots, and I'd totally replace the TIEs with E-wings and X-wings because the Rebels totally win the fighter design race.

Oh and of course not run by Dark Side Sith Vampire Palpatine, of course.

I also admit that when it came to the whole nation states kind of forum games, I went with a pseudo dictatorship. Not because of any nerd power fantasies or whatever, it's just that I'm entirely too lazy to want to fuck around with Senate intrigues and crap, felt that just having them vote my way all the time would be lame so said fuck it and cut out the middleman.

[RogueIce]

Also from SB, but just to be an asshole:

From tomorrow, humans react strongly to direct sunlight.

Five seconds of direct sunshine cause third degree burns at the exposed areas.

What now? And what do you do now?

98% of Internet nerds fail to notice any change whatsoever.

[Flagg]

Yeah man, nazzies were snazzy looking that's for sure.

[Infinity Biscuit]

I have never once understood the common opinion that the Nazis hit it off with aesthetics. The uniforms just look to me as if someone mangled together a police uniform with a box of decorations and called it a day.

[Jung]

That sentence is missing the word obliviously.

Which sentence?

Imperial apologism was basically taking the concept that 'the Empire might not be all bad' and then tryin gto translate it into a justifcation that the Empire really wasn't a bad guy.

The ironic thing about that is if you want the Star Wars side to be less evil you could just make it Star Trek vs. the Republic. I'm guessing one of the main reasons it comes down to Federation vs. Empire so much is because the Federation and the Republic aren't really the kind of states that would randomly start fights with each other, whereas the Empire is exactly the kind of state that would invade some peaceful weaker neighbor.

Edit: A better example of both in relation to one another might be looking at how pro-Imperium fans view the Imperium itself, especially when interacting with other franchises/factions both within and without 40K. Esp the Tau. I've noticed that whilst the Imperium is fundamentally a mixed bag 'gray area' sort of thing (its got some good aspects but lots of negative aspects too) alot of the pro-Imperium sorts will try to minimize the negative aspects and over-emphasize the positive ones (to be fair you find this amongst some of the pro-Tau side too) and to an outside observer the tribalism can be very evident.

I've noticed this too. The hating on the Tau is interesting - on paper they seem like the kind of faction people like SB/SDN nerds should like. They're the science and humanism fuck yeah guys, the guttering light of reason and humanism and hope and technocratic efficiency in a vast dark sea of superstition, ignorance, barbarism, and despair (I mean, yeah, you can take issue with this, but the theme is there). You'd think that would be catnip to the kind of people who ate up Salvation War and defend RDA in Avatar.

I wonder why this doesn't happen? Is it because WH40K attracts different kinds of fans? Is it just tribalistic identification with whatever side is made up of humans? Is it because the Imperium better facilitates nerd authoritarianism boners? Some combination of all the above? Other?

[Oxymoron]

The reason is simple :

- The Tau aren't human
- The Tau have been reported in some parts of the fluff (Dawn of War at least) to exert a policy of forced sterilization on humans
- While it is multi-racial, the Tau Empire has been made by and for Tau ; every other species of the Empire being inferior in status to the Tau
- The Tau society is held together by basically denying free will to its individuals, while for all its faults, the Imperium isn't quite there yet (though I do not doubt they'd do it if they could, if it isn't already happening is some of its parts)

So it's understandable the "Humanists" would be rubbed the wrong way by the Tau.

[Oxymoron]

I shouldn't have asked the other day if Purple was still on SDN.

'Cause apparently that summoned him.

[Jung]

- The Tau aren't human

I don't think nerd human-nationalism is really about species, not at its core.

It's about humanity as representing something they identify with culturally. It's less humanity fuck yeah than it is Western values/Space America fuck yeah. Humanity is just a convenient signifier for this.

Like with Avatar, I don't think the RDA apologism phenomenon comes primarily from speciesism. I think it has more to do with that Avatar is critical of, and the Na'vi reject, the Western secular religion of Progress, and a lot of nerds don't like this. What it's really about is being offended at the notion that anybody could consider being a hunter-gatherer in a jungle to be anything but an obviously inferior lifestyle to being a citizen of a modern Western-style state, and at the idea of this being portrayed as anything but ignorant, foolish, or evil.

Which is why Tau-hate is interesting, because they represent a lot of the things nerds like while the Imperium represents a lot of things nerds hate, but nerds hate the Tau anyway. Maybe it indicates what I wrote above is wrong. But I suspect there's more to it than that.

[Aaron]

I shouldn't have asked the other day if Purple was still on SDN.

'Cause apparently that summoned him.

Its dangerous to go alone. Here, take this: