Testing Chat IV: A New Hope

[Oxymoron]

Well -of course- there's going to be ways to abuse the system.

The only question is how to reduce them to a minimum while at the same time not penalizing [too much] the users' day-to-day use of the system.

[Flagg]

I dunno. You institute a new federal ID system, and you manage to convince everyone to just ask for your federal ID number. Isn't that new number also going to have the attributes "please put this on every official application you ever fill out in your adult life" and "anyone who knows your number can ruin your life for their own gain"?

This is why I'd advocate just having scannable cards and a PIN, much like how credit/bank cards already work. That way just knowing the number isn't enough, you have to have the physical card. And if it's lost/stolen, or if suspicious transactions/uses start popping up, you have a backup code you can give to have it deactivated and eventually replaced, as well as an easy means to start tracking someone attempting to use it for fraudulent purposes.

Again, this is my idealist scenario, any bearing it has on the reality of overcoming US cultural fears of national ID, and governmental incompetence in actually running such a system, may be slim.

If we're talking pure ideals, why not a thumbprint scanner connected to a PIN pad?

Not everyone has thumbs?

[Oxymoron]

DNA scanners !

[evilsoup]

assprint

[Oxymoron]

Not everyone has an asshole.

[Djinnkitty83]

Almost all animal shelters now have a standard process of chipping everything that comes through their doors. It's a passive, subdermal chip that has the animal's ID which can be used to look up their owners' location, their medical history, vaccinations, spay/neuter status, etc. I see no reason why, barring cultural hangups, this can't be applied to people, with ID cards/ PINs as a backup.

[evilsoup]

hey why don't we tattoo people's numbers on their arm while we're at it

[Djinnkitty83]

hey why don't we tattoo people's numbers on their arm while we're at it

[evilsoup]

you're suggesting we chip people like dogs
I mean
are you joking or can you not see that that is literally a higher-tech version of tattoos on the forearm?

[Djinnkitty83]

Either you're deliberately trolling with Godwin and strawman bait, or you are sincerely too stupid to understand the difference. Either way, I doubt explaining the obvious reasons you're wrong will actually result in a greater understanding on your part.

[Flagg]

IT'S A TROLL!

[adr]

it would be kinda interesting to do like cryptographic stuff where you give other people a sub-identity that can be verified by your main identity but you cannot get the main one back from it

like have oyu used those websites that ask for permission to access your facebook or twitter account? and you can check which parts you want to allow them to access and then they get that and only that, never knowing your fb/twitter password, and all these do give our your username, but there's no technical reason why they'd have to, so it could be semi-anonymous with the same principle


i guess the main problem bringing that into meatspace (yes i just said 'meatspace' lol) tho is still fundamentally the same thing - how to prevent it from being stolen or hijacked, since we aren't going to be doing hard cryptomath with giant numbers in our heads, there'd have to be some kind of computer assistance or smart cards or something that could be separated from the owner

mebbe combine it with an encryption passphrase or the biometric shit and let it be revoked

idk

[evilsoup]

Djinnkitty you know you could have just written 'help I can't defend my position'

Oxy, everyone has a brain, right? Maybe brain biopsies are the biometric data of the future?
Sure, there'll be a small % of people who'll end up with brain damage, but I think that's a small price to pay for a more efficient and reliable bureaucracy

[Djinnkitty83]

Djinnkitty you know you could have just written 'help I can't defend my position'

My position is not what you think it is, but do keep tilting at those windmills.

[evilsoup]

maybe you should state your position then
(crazy, I know)
right now I'm imagining the career chips from Futurama

[Djinnkitty83]

It took you approximately 0 posts to immediately compare passive chips to the holocaust.

Exactly what reason do I have to believe you are debating in good faith, and that it's worth it to try and further explain myself under the assumption that you are actually interested in learning, rather than trolling?

[evilsoup]

well I guess you'll never know until you try?

[Questor]

Big O,

While hypocrisy is a very good word for it, but anti-Americanism isn't.

There's a much dirtier word: Nationalism.

And like most nationalists, they've never figured out how to take pride in their country without tearing others down.

Metahive and Thanas have a cognitive dissonance par excellance going, set up by the accepted (in Germany) idea that all nationalism is evil. Combine that with the dramatically unhealthy approach of Germans to their own history and accomplishments, and you get two people who are massively confused, and are probably unable to truly articulate. They are the modern descendants of the great boogiemen of human history, and in order to "cleanse itself of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race" Germany took steps that are simply unacceptable in any liberal democracy.

So now you have an entire generation of Germans who punish themselves for the sins of their grandfathers, and even worse, think that that kind of intergenerational punishment is normal. They live in a product of modern social engineering, and think any society that has not done that is dangerous. America represents their greatest fear in so many ways (many justified, but many not) that they must cut it down, simply to excuse their inability to reconcile their pride in a country that more than any other in the 20th century lifted itself by its bootstraps out of a feudal existence with a very short period in their history where they elected a monster who convinced their ancestors to commit the greatest crime in the history of the world.

[Oxymoron]

Djinn, the problem is that for most people, what you propose in fact look awfully like tagging people the same way we do with animals. And the idea of "tagging people as animal" has a very negative connotation in our society, born in part from the Holocaust and that "tattoo on the forearm" thing, but also from the de-humanizing aspect of treating people like cattle.

Like it or not, strawman or not 'Soup's reaction is representative of what you could rightly expect of the general population if you were to propose tagging people with chips. EVEN if it wasn't mandatory and on a voluntary basis.

Your intent here doesn't matter so much as to how the action you propose would be perceived.

[evilsoup]

ex-actly

[Djinnkitty83]

well I guess you'll never know until you try?

I'll try with people I think actually have an interest in learning, and that I might learn something from in return, and whose questions come from honest curiosity, rather than smirking attempts at trolling.

You immediately compared passive chipping to the holocaust, then with a straight face try to imply I'm the one being unreasonable for not explaining or justifying myself to you.

Sorry, I'm not playing your game, and I am not wasting my energy being your entertainment. I'll save it for people who actually have an interest in discussing and learning, rather than those looking for validation of their own strawmen.

Like it or not, strawman or not 'Soup's reaction is representative of what you could rightly expect of the general population if you were to propose tagging people with chips. EVEN if it wasn't mandatory and on a voluntary basis.

I wouldn't propose anything like this in random social situations because I already know it would be the reaction of the general populace. This board should not act like the 'general populace'. I'd assume the people here hold themselves to a higher standard than knee-jerk fear and godwinisms, and have an interest in discussion and inquiry, otherwise what's the point of anyone coming here and thinking we're a little above that sort of thing? Using 'everyone does it' as an excuse kind of removes any special reason why people would come to this board and feel safe discussing things they wouldn't elsewhere.

Djinn, the problem is that for most people, what you propose in fact look awfully like tagging people the same way we do with animals. And the idea of "tagging people as animal" has a very negative connotation in our society, born in part from the Holocaust and that "tattoo on the forearm" thing, but also from the de-humanizing aspect of treating people like cattle.

Passive chipping is absolutely nothing like the holocaust. For one thing, know what the visible difference is between a chipped and unchipped animal? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. The chip is tiny, subdermal, and usually injected by a slightly larger-than-average syringe in a procedure that doesn't even technically qualify as 'surgical'. Usually it's done on an arm or leg so that, in the miniscule chance that the body reacts poorly and forms a tumour around it, it's a lot less risky to remove. As for what the chip does in the body? Nothing, really. It just sits there, it's a passive chip that can't be seen.

So how do you tell if something is chipped? You have to spend a couple minutes going over their body with a specialized scanner (in the event of strays being picked up), or a few seconds if you know where specifically it's located. And then all that happens is you get an ID number. In animals it's just the ID they're registered under in a national database that contains their medical history and owner information. With people it could be a drivers license number, SSN, or something new, it doesn't matter, it's no different than the cards people already carry around except that it's a lot harder to lose, have stolen, and a lot easier to prove you're who you say you are in case fraud does start occurring under your name. And the database could contain everything that is already attached to peoples' identities, from citizenship status to criminal records, to medical history. Yes, it could theoretically be hacked... but hey, that's already the case as things are now!

Trying to compare this to holocaust tattoos, firm visual symbols placed on easily visible portions of a specific group of people for the sole purpose of identifying them as a class be oppressed, is disingenuous at best.

EDIT: And I guess I should also make clear: Given the medical nature of the procedure, ideally I would make it also be voluntary. The person themselves, or their parents/guardians, can refuse for any reason, religious or otherwise, and be issued a card that pretty much serves the same purpose. If they wanted to switch over at any point in their lives, the procedure would be covered, and if at some point they wanted to switch from a chip to the card, again, it would be covered. The only difference being that the card can be lost or stolen, the chip not so much, barring an accident which mangles the limb/area of flesh it's located, or someone who knows exactly where it is coming after you with a knife for whatever far-fetched theoretical reason.

[Infinity Biscuit]

Big O,

While hypocrisy is a very good word for it, but anti-Americanism isn't.

There's a much dirtier word: Nationalism.

And like most nationalists, they've never figured out how to take pride in their country without tearing others down.

Metahive and Thanas have a cognitive dissonance par excellance going, set up by the accepted (in Germany) idea that all nationalism is evil. Combine that with the dramatically unhealthy approach of Germans to their own history and accomplishments, and you get two people who are massively confused, and are probably unable to truly articulate. They are the modern descendants of the great boogiemen of human history, and in order to "cleanse itself of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race" Germany took steps that are simply unacceptable in any liberal democracy.

So now you have an entire generation of Germans who punish themselves for the sins of their grandfathers, and even worse, think that that kind of intergenerational punishment is normal. They live in a product of modern social engineering, and think any society that has not done that is dangerous. America represents their greatest fear in so many ways (many justified, but many not) that they must cut it down, simply to excuse their inability to reconcile their pride in a country that more than any other in the 20th century lifted itself by its bootstraps out of a feudal existence with a very short period in their history where they elected a monster who convinced their ancestors to commit the greatest crime in the history of the world.

Are you seriously saying that conscious effort to minimise nationalism is psychologically dangerous and unhealthy because

Honestly I find the attitude you demonise here a lot healthier and more normal than the typical baseline nationalist attitude

[evilsoup]

hmm you know
if there was some way to use smartphones as an ID, that would be actually useful (since everyone will have one within the next ten years, even poor people, as I suspect we will end up with £10 smartphones)
but I'm not sure how to implement that in a way which wouldn't be trivial to forge. It is already possible to use some smartphones for contactless credit card payments, so in principle it probably can be done

Passive chipping is absolutely nothing like the holocaust.

lol thanks for that stunning insight

these chips offer no security benefits, since RFID chips are trivial to clone by someone standing next to you in a queue, and would require all places interested in looking at your ID to have a chip reader (rather than a working pair of eyes, for an ID card). I can't imagine an off-license would be happy to accept these chips as ID, unless they were forced to by some law.

I think you (and oxy if he's serious about the thumb-print scanners) are missing that one of the major selling-points of an ID card is the simplicity of it -- it doesn't need to be connected to a centralised database to work, if the Internet is down or the computers are acting up (or in situations like a busy pub, where all this non-sense would get in the way of business) then a simple photograph check can be sufficient to determine ID. I think modern passports have chips to integrate them into databases and such, but that's an add-on to the basic concept.

Also, let's say someone clones your chip and starts using it for fraud. What now? Do you have to get your chip removed?

The only place I can see this being potentially useful is as an ID for accessing government services, but Christ I can almost see the Guardian headlines about chipping benefit claimants like animals. The tories (and similar poor-hating vermin in other countries) would probably love the idea, though, so it might actually go through

[Losonti Tokash]

rfid chips and thumbprint scanners seem like solutions looking for a problem

[uraniun235]

i'm kind of surprised ADR hasn't already said something like "well my ideal solution would be to re-order society in such a way where it would be fruitless to commit fraud by impersonating another individual"