Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

[timmy]

That's Ed's bass rig. Ashdown cab like this one topped with 350 watts of I can't remember what. If we ever needed more bottom end(not likely) he could stack a 15" sub cab into it.

[Infinity Biscuit]

This just showed up on my dashboard today. Pretty good timing

http://rajsivaraman.wordpress.com/2013/ ... ape-jokes/

[Jung]

This just showed up on my dashboard today. Pretty good timing

http://rajsivaraman.wordpress.com/2013/ ... ape-jokes/

The backing up what it's saying with actual science is pretty cool, but I find myself mildly annoyed with the way discussion of rape culture seems to often focus on trying to persuade potential rapists not to rape. Rapists are a small minority of the population and much of rape is committed by a still smaller minority of recidivists who do it over and over again. That doesn't look to me like a crime people do because culture has trained the masses to think it's acceptable - it looks to me like a crime people do because they're predatory personalities, of a sort I'm rather skeptical is particularly reachable by telling them to be nice more. I submit the truly damaging aspect of rape culture is that it makes it harder for the 95% of normal non-rapist people to recognize the predators for what they are, and creates a social environment in which said predators can more easily get away with their crimes, and the most productive approach would probably be focusing on the 95% of people who are already fundamentally decent non-rapists but often act as rapist enablers because of rape culture, not on the rapists themselves.

[Infinity Biscuit]

I've seen statistics in the other direction and the large ambiguity in what is defined as "rape" makes me think it's otherwise, though. I mean, look at all those people out there who openly admit to nonviolently coercing people into sex or openly ignoring lack of consent if it isn't made intensely obvious. Those are the kinds of people whose behavior can (hopefully) be changed through better understanding of this stuff.

That said, the fact that only 3% of rapists see any criminal punishment is indeed a large consequence of our rape culture that needs to change.

[evilsoup]

thanks for sharing that IB.

[Infinity Biscuit]

As an example of what I was talking about in my last post:

This page shows studies that 1/12 college men admitted to actions constituting legal rape (but 84% did not consider it rape) and 43% of college men admit to using coercion to get sex, which is rape in any but the most legalistic sense.

These are things that can actually be changed through a shift in narrative.

[Veef]

http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/mako-mor ... cific-rim/

when your nerd thing doesn't measure up to the buzzwords

just make new buzzwords

[Jung]

This page shows studies that 1/12 college men admitted to actions constituting legal rape (but 84% did not consider it rape) and 43% of college men admit to using coercion to get sex, which is rape in any but the most legalistic sense.

I wonder what their definition of "coercive behavior" was.

http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/mako-mor ... cific-rim/

when your nerd thing doesn't measure up to the buzzwords

just make new buzzwords

So I'm not the only one who noticed Pacific Rim was actually pretty fucking awful with gender.

The article linked to in there is pretty depressing.

It's also rather depressing that the defense of her seems to be basically "most of the other stuff out there is worse." It pretty much parallels my own thoughts on PR's 'inclusiveness': it looks good only because the general standard it's being compared with is so dismal.

[Infinity Biscuit]

I wonder what their definition of "coercive behavior" was.

You could check the link there bud

In another survey of college males: 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

[Jung]

I wonder what their definition of "coercive behavior" was.

You could check the link there bud

In another survey of college males: 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

I did read it. "Including" implies other stuff might be included as well. "Ignoring a woman's protest" and "using physical aggression" is also pretty vague.

The fact that almost twice as many men admit to doing whatever this is than women admit to having been raped makes me suspicious of whatever this is as a measure of rape.

[RyanThunder]

Wait was that also the group that didn't think that what they were doing was rape? Because that's just... augh

[Infinity Biscuit]

Wait was that also the group that didn't think that what they were doing was rape? Because that's just... augh

Actually the 84% that didn't think their behavior was rape was the narrower group of the 8% who admit to behavior that constitutes legal rape. Presumably the proportion's even more extreme with this group.

[Infinity Biscuit]

I did read it. "Including" implies other stuff might be included as well. "Ignoring a woman's protest" and "using physical aggression" is also pretty vague.

The fact that almost twice as many men admit to doing whatever this is than women admit to having been raped makes me suspicious of whatever this is as a measure of rape.

If they're protesting in any way and you acknowledge but ignore it or if you have to use physical aggression for it, I don't care how "vague" that is; that's rape.

And the imprecise definition of rape works both ways. I have a friend who had her at-the-time-best-friend sexually assault her while she was incapacitatedly drunk and openly saying "no", and this haunts her years later, but she didn't consider it rape until after we talked about it together.

I'm not saying we take the 43% as the exact number or generalise it to all men and ignore other statistics; I'm using this as an example that the numbers vary a lot depending on how you word the questions, so lowballing it without acknowledging the other stats found can be pretty dangerous.

[Jung]

If they're protesting in any way and you acknowledge but ignore it or if you have to use physical aggression for it, I don't care how "vague" that is; that's rape.

If one person kisses another, and the other person tries to push them away, but then changes their mind and gives implicit consent by body language, and they then have sex, was that rape?

Because a scenario like that was the first thing that hit me when I thought of how a definition like "ignoring a woman's protest" might way overestimate the amount of actual rape happening.

Now, to be sure, I think the kind of behavior I just outlined is problematic and could definitely go some bad places, but I think both morally and psychologically there's a serious difference between that and forcing sex on somebody who doesn't want it.

Edit:

I'm not saying we take the 43% as the exact number or generalise it to all men and ignore other statistics; I'm using this as an example that the numbers vary a lot depending on how you word the questions, so lowballing it without acknowledging the other stats found can be pretty dangerous.

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

[evilsoup]

Kikuchi's character, Mako Mori, seems to be almost universally uncriticized on Tumblr, where she stars in fanart, gifsets, headcanons, fanfiction, and routine gusts of praise from female fans who love that her character is neither sexually objectified nor given a narrative arc that revolves around a man.

In the film, Mako struggles to asserts her independence despite the protectiveness of her stern father figure, Stacker Pentecost (Idris Elba).

Um.

[Infinity Biscuit]

I've actually seen some of criticism of the criticism in that it's a very white feminist thing and ignores the different cultural aspects and stuff.

I haven't seen the movie still so I can't say much at all but putting that out there.

[Jung]

Anyway, where I'm coming from is I suspect trying to convince rapists to be nicer people is largely going to either fall on deaf ears or be preaching to the choir. The kind of men who are likely to listen are unlikely to rape anyway. The kind of men who are likely to rape are unlikely to listen.

What I suspect is that rape culture is really a problem in that it causes the decent people supermajority to be receptive to the excuses of the rapist minority, and if you really want to get the most bang for your buck it's the decent people supermajority you want to focus on. Convincing the rapist he's wrong would be ideal, but I'll settle for his victim having sympathetic people she's not afraid to report him to and a police force and justice system that swiftly descends upon the rapist and punishes him, and this strikes me as likely a more realistic aim.

Thankfully I don't think there's actually that much of a conflict between the two, because the usual rhetoric aimed at attacking the elements of rape culture within the rapist themselves also work pretty well at attacking it in the decent supermajority.

[Jung]

Kikuchi's character, Mako Mori, seems to be almost universally uncriticized on Tumblr, where she stars in fanart, gifsets, headcanons, fanfiction, and routine gusts of praise from female fans who love that her character is neither sexually objectified nor given a narrative arc that revolves around a man.

In the film, Mako struggles to asserts her independence despite the protectiveness of her stern father figure, Stacker Pentecost (Idris Elba).

Um.

She's also apparently either unwilling or unable to actually stand up to Pentecost at all and it's pretty much her boyfriend who has to do it for her. Also the relationship between her and Pentecost seems to largely be an excuse for Pentecost and Raleigh to have tension with each other.

That people are praising her as some well-done female character I find pretty sad. She's a wonderful example of much of what's wrong with the way women are portrayed in popular media.

[Veef]

yeah it's just

i could appreciate P-Rimmy if it was just a movie

but the way it has become the rallying cry for nerd culture saving the world is getting out of hand

[Darksi4190]

I've seen people hoping that it'll usher in more "nerd" films similar to it, but "saving the world" is a tad much.

[Veef]

Lots of nerds want to save the world

What do you think years of Cyberpunk movies was about

save the world with compoooooooooters!

[timmy]

I once had a boss of a netrunner character

Best RPG campaign we ever did

[evilsoup]

I've seen people hoping that it'll usher in more "nerd" films similar to it, but "saving the world" is a tad much.

we are in the middle of a glut of nerd films (or possibly at the largest bit of the bubble, just before it bursts), and besides didn't pacific rim underperform?

[Veef]

That's a whole 'nother story! It's like we got the Nerdraqi Information Ministry trying to damage control over how much it made!

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=pacificrim.htm

It's not doing so hot. It didn't bomb but it's not doing the numbers they wanted.

[evilsoup]

and in the meantime all the stuff from established franchises are dominating
god bless capitalism