Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

[Infinity Biscuit]

Jung, have you done any reading of queer politics or even social justice issues from the perspective of those involved except my blog? I would suggest reading some because you seem to be coming from a solid standpoint of your own but it could serve you well to read others. On the stuff in your post right there, I'd suggest reading Identity Judgements, Queer Politics. this link may work? not sure

Anyway it articulates how things like gay as an identity are useful without necessarily being bound to hard cold facts (ie having a gay identity without believing you are only ever able to be attracted to women ever in your life, etc), while on the other hand straight as an identity is much less so. And it applies to other forms of oppressed identities.

One thing I disagree with in the article is how it says that things like straight as an identity (and by proxy things like white) should be discarded and leaves it at that, whereas I think that yes they should be discarded as identities but still useful as descriptive labels so as to remove the implication that the privileged is normal and thus good. The article doesn't disagree with this but I feel it should have been stated at some point in there.

[Jung]

One thing I disagree with in the article is how it says that things like straight as an identity (and by proxy things like white) should be discarded and leaves it at that, whereas I think that yes they should be discarded as identities but still useful as descriptive labels so as to remove the implication that the privileged is normal and thus good. The article doesn't disagree with this but I feel it should have been stated at some point in there.

Having read that essay there's quite a bit I dislike about it, mostly tied in with the way they freely mix description and prescription in a way that honestly feels rather slimily sophistic.

Edit: I had a huge reply all written up but decided I've really been going a bit heavy on the contrarian-ness lately. The gist was they seem to mix up their social analysis of how identity functions with their subjective opinions of what identities are badwrong and therefore unworthy of respect in a way I'm not comfortable with.

Aside from that the actual point of the essay was interesting but I don't think I agree with it.

Edit2: I originally said "because I don't agree with their analysis of identity" but I don't think that's really the heart of it. I wouldn't abstain from a self-identity as straight* because it would feel like a ridiculous, self-important feel-good gesture that will probably accomplish marginal good at best and likely nothing. When it comes to trying to be a good person I kind of feel like actual action is probably going to accomplish a lot more than this having-the-right-ideas-in-your-head oriented stuff.

* Edit3: actually I kind of do, but it has mostly to do with that I generally like to minimalize the categories I incorporate into my identity.

[Infinity Biscuit]

I'm not sure if you missed the part of the article that made me post it or if you disagreed and are ignoring that part in the post, but that essay touches upon something that is the answer to a lot of your points: how identity politics honestly has no real (non-negative) meaning for privileged identities. So you talking about how identity politics doesn't work for you, how you choose not to go into it, doesn't have any real bearing in the strength or value of identity politics as a whole.

[evilsoup]

the way I see it, Jung: you are correct in that in a perfect democratic socialist post-discrimination fanfiction utopia there will be no need to have these kind of identity groups, and in fact there they would be actively harmful
but
until we get there, the identity politics stuff is a useful tool to provide support and solidarity within groups that are discriminated against. It may be misapplied at times, but that doesn't invalidate the tool itself.

[Jung]

I'm not sure if you missed the part of the article that made me post it or if you disagreed and are ignoring that part in the post, but that essay touches upon something that is the answer to a lot of your points: how identity politics honestly has no real (non-negative) meaning for privileged identities.

Yeah, I don't think I agree with that either. It seems to assume that privileged groups can have no group interests except to maintain their privilege. The most obvious example of where this fails off the top of my head is men, who are harmed as well as privileged by patriarchy in a number of ways, and who have somewhat different interests from women as a result of biology. Another example is the problematic attitudes that exist on the left where classism is OK as long as it's directed at poor whites, which is an area where I'm not sure white interest politics would be worthless.

Edit: the actual essay doesn't seem to be too bad with this, applying this only to straight identity and admitting the hypothetical possibility of positive straight identity (as I recall).

the way I see it, Jung: you are correct in that in a perfect democratic socialist post-discrimination fanfiction utopia there will be no need to have these kind of identity groups, and in fact there they would be actively harmful
but
until we get there, the identity politics stuff is a useful tool to provide support and solidarity within groups that are discriminated against. It may be misapplied at times, but that doesn't invalidate the tool itself.

Oh, I don't think these identities are inherently bad or people shouldn't have them.

[Infinity Biscuit]

How exactly is Male Identity Politics supposed to deal with the issues of the patriarchy? I mean, either in theory OR in practice (where it inevitably ends up, well, look at every single MRA argument out there)?

[Infinity Biscuit]

I mean, the whole idea of Identity Politics is to give power and some level of... solidarity isn't the right word, but something like that, to groups who are both oppressed and marginalised and erased largely and much of how it works is by defining an identity outside of the privileged norm. So Male Identity Politics would be useful in a matriarchal oppressive system, but when the problems WRT gender itself (and not how men are hurt by classism, racism, etc) are caused by patriarchy then attempts to use it as a tool are counter productive (again, see all MRAs).

[Jung]

How exactly is Male Identity Politics supposed to deal with the issues of the patriarchy? I mean, either in theory OR in practice (where it inevitably ends up, well, look at every single MRA argument out there)?

I suppose it depends on exactly what you mean by "identity politics"; approaching it as if men are some oppressed minority is pretty stupid and likely to be harmful (and one of the places the MRM goes horribly wrong), but so is the idea that men have no legitimate group interests.

[Infinity Biscuit]

maybe jung and I should get our own thread for this stuff

some one on one time

[evilsoup]

holy shit sharknado is amazing

[Civil War Man]

It gets weird with stuff like male identity, or white identity, or straight identity. Because those groups don't have a history of being oppressed, a lot of it ties into the identity politics of other minority groups, and a lot of it overlaps.

In the specific case of male identity, it pretty much boils down to sexuality. Like the predator fear that will crop up when some people encounter a grown man working in a job that regularly interacts with young children. Those jobs are considered stereotypical "female" jobs due to the assumption that men are barely contained hypersexual animals and incapable of nurturing behavior.

A lot of male identity also ties into homophobia and gay identity politics, because society still rates the masculinity of certain activities and assumes that any man who does not maintain a minimum level of masculinity is homosexual by default.

[F.J. Prefect, Esq]

Man remember the metrosexual panic thing in the early 2000s thing

Funny stuff

[Civil War Man]

Seriously. You'd think that Crockett and Tubbs would have acclimated people to it.

[timmy]

Man remember the metrosexual panic thing in the early 2000s thing

Funny stuff

Weren't you like six back then??

[F.J. Prefect, Esq]

I'm thinking of the era that lead to Queer Eye

I was a bit older then

[timmy]

That felt closer to the mid 2000s

I was driving down Macquarie Street yesterday and saw a few students wearing leavers tops. It occured to me that they had been in the first grade when I finished school.

[Bounty]

holy shit sharknado is amazing

i know right

love that movie

[adr]

i really really want to go to the store and get more cookie stuff

but it doesn't go on sale until tomorrow

gah i just want to get it out of the way

[adr]

yay they restocked! i got 5 of them. i'll go back friday.

________________
but beware for when you quench your bloodthirst, others will seek vengeance on you
and they won't rest
until you're dead

[evilsoup]

murmaider murmader murmaider murmaider murmaider murmaider murmaider murmader murmaider murmaider murmaider murmaider murmaider murmader murmaider murmaider murmaider murmaider murmaider murmader murmaider murmaider murmaider murmaider

[adr]

i love that song, it is really very good especially since it comes from a fake band lol

[evilsoup]

dethklok are unironically one of my favourite 'bands'
Awaken Mustakrakesh is especially badass
god when is the next season of that show coming out

[adr]

i haven't actualyl seen the show for quite a while now. i think i watched the first season then its timeslot changed and i never caught up

i didnt even know it was still on! but i dont got cable no more so oh well

* * *

in other news

(10:42:36) Destructionator: yeah, i'm working with stdout so i set a signal handler for SIG_IGN, but it is something i forgot to do last night and was banging my head for an hour wondering why the program was terminating so strangely
(10:42:51) Destructionator: of course now i wake up and it is obviously a sigpipe but i didn't come to me at all last night

(10:44:04) <other user>: Destructionator: didn't the debugger tell you it was a sigpipe? (or even the return code from the process, if you weren't running it in a debugger)
(10:44:56) Destructionator: i wasn't using a debugger last night... (really i should know, never stay up late coding because you just grow more and more incompetent as the day goes on, thus wasting more time)



the more tired you get

the more time you waste

never stay up late working

ever

[evilsoup]

yass it's on like the fifth season now I think
also I do all my best writing in bed in the middle of the night
but that's not so much work as 'well I haven't got a job so I might as well write a book lol' so eh

[Darth Tedious]

Creative/artistic type stuffs are totally different

That shit happens best at 3-5am
Under bad conditions (like "oh dear I have no food this week")

I don't know the reasons for this, but it appears to be the main cause of musical acts 'selling out' once they become successful and can actually afford food