Testing Chat V: The Final Mysterious Island: Miami Beach

[zhaktronz]

Charlotte, minor nitpick:

It is an interesting sidelight that our language - created and codified by men - does not have one unflattering term to describe men who vent their anger at women. even such epithets as ‘bastard’ and ‘son of a bitch’ do not condemn the man but place the blame on a woman - his Mother!

I find the idea that 50% of the population had no influence on the English language or basically any living spoken language very dubious.

What is the specific term that describes only a woman venting anger at a man?

[Bakustra]

Charlotte, minor nitpick:

It is an interesting sidelight that our language - created and codified by men - does not have one unflattering term to describe men who vent their anger at women. even such epithets as ‘bastard’ and ‘son of a bitch’ do not condemn the man but place the blame on a woman - his Mother!

I find the idea that 50% of the population had no influence on the English language or basically any living spoken language very dubious.

What is the specific term that describes only a woman venting anger at a man?

they've fallen somewhat out of favor, but nag, henpeck, etc. are all still recognizable terms that specifically refer to women being angry at men, let alone terms like ball-buster or battleaxe that are less specific but still gendered.

anyways, i've been whining a lot about stuff on IB's tumblr, so i think i'm going to try and be more evenhanded:

She's walking alone down a dark street when she notices someone following her. Several feet later, she whirls around. "Listen, you sick fuck, I have a gun and it's loaded. So, don't try anything funny!!"
The tall man quirks an eyebrow. "Ma'am I was only trying to--"
"Oh, I KNOW what you trying to do, pervert. Fuck off!"
"But--"
"Now!"
The man shrugs and walks away.
*The Next day her body is found mutilated in the bushes.
When the man is questioned by detectives, he sighs. " I tried to warn her that she was being followed by a suspicious black van. So much for gratitude."

Moral of the Story: Swallow your pride and accept help when it's offered.

this really rubs me the wrong way, even though i get the message and think the basic idea isn't all that bad

[Zablorg]

dude has his priorities fucked up

if he gave a damn about the woman when the confrontation happened he'd just straight up yell "HEY YOU'RE BEING FOLLOWED BY A BLACK VAN"

but no

"oh well she's being so hostile she can be chopped up for all i care"

seriously "so much for gratitude"??????

[Infinity Biscuit]

I don't think the idea is women have no effect on language. It's that (especially before now) our contributions were not seen as acceptable or valid and didn't enter lasting mainstream discourse (ie the discourse of men). You talk about internalisation but one thing to really think about is how our society trains women to be submissive, follow mens' leads, and not offer our own input on things, so having us offer a significantly smaller share of lasting language shouldn't be surprising, without laying it all on internalised misogyny.

What is the specific term that describes only a woman venting anger at a man?

The entire concept of "the bitch" (when directed at women) is a woman being more assertive, esp towards men, than is seen as societally acceptable (ie basically anything >0). And that's one of the more commonly used words in our spoken language, even accounting for the alternate meanings.

Baks, the message that thing is trying to send seems to be "never judge a man you don't know you ungrateful bitch no matter how unsafe he makes you feel he probably has your best interests at heart and knows more than you do about what you should do" :L

[Zablorg]

dude has his priorities fucked up

if he gave a damn about the woman when the confrontation happened he'd just straight up yell "HEY YOU'RE BEING FOLLOWED BY A BLACK VAN"

but no

"oh well she's being so hostile she can be chopped up for all i care"

seriously "so much for gratitude"??????

i mean the fact that this was clearly written by someone who empathizes with the guy and imagines this scenario of the PARANOID LADY WHO WON'T LISTEN TO NICE MAN (THE FOLLY) illustrates quite nicely the dangers of people prioritizing "politeness" over all else

i mean in this scenario he could well have stopped her death but didn't for what amounts to his good character being tarnished by one person or whatever the fuck and he is supposed to be the reasonable one here

[Flagg]

Black van was read as black man by me the first time. I am a terrible person.

[Infinity Biscuit]

That's how I read it, too, because the whole thing was so shitty that finding overt racism in it wouldn't have surprised me :L

[zhaktronz]

But I mean bitch can describe a woman being aggressive to another woman; its not a gender directional term

ill give that there are older words for the described behaviour though

[zhaktronz]

i understand what you are saying though

[Bakustra]

I don't think the idea is women have no effect on language. It's that (especially before now) our contributions were not seen as acceptable or valid and didn't enter lasting mainstream discourse (ie the discourse of men). You talk about internalisation but one thing to really think about is how our society trains women to be submissive, follow mens' leads, and not offer our own input on things, so having us offer a significantly smaller share of lasting language shouldn't be surprising, without laying it all on internalised misogyny.

What is the specific term that describes only a woman venting anger at a man?

The entire concept of "the bitch" (when directed at women) is a woman being more assertive, esp towards men, than is seen as societally acceptable (ie basically anything >0). And that's one of the more commonly used words in our spoken language, even accounting for the alternate meanings.

Baks, the message that thing is trying to send seems to be "never judge a man you don't know you ungrateful bitch no matter how unsafe he makes you feel he probably has your best interests at heart and knows more than you do about what you should do" :L

the title is alleys and allies, so it's a self-defeating metaphor about not assuming allies are fuckers, but making it work would require not making the guy a fucker. id put together a more accurate version if i weren't on a mobile

[thejester]

yeah I was going to say I totally dig the way 'bitch' is used as a derogative term for women and in particular by men in positions of power towards men who are seen to be defying them

but at the same time I most closely associate the words with a certain set of behaviours and in fact now that I think about it I actually got taught that in school

[RogueIce]

dude has his priorities fucked up

if he gave a damn about the woman when the confrontation happened he'd just straight up yell "HEY YOU'RE BEING FOLLOWED BY A BLACK VAN"

but no

"oh well she's being so hostile she can be chopped up for all i care"

seriously "so much for gratitude"??????

Or just, I don't know, called the police himself? Yeah crazy I know.

I can see what the message is trying to say and like Baks I don't think that message is necessarily a bad one, but the presentation is terrible with an ending that even to my non-SJ experienced eye is pretty clearly: "Bitch got what she deserved."

Like I don't know if it would have been any better to change it so the guy backs off, calls the cops, they show up to stop the van and the woman sees this and realizes what happened, but it would probably be at least somewhat less terrible than the ending they went with.

[adr]

ugh the hardest part about writing this book is dealing with microsoft word

i might be one of the only people in the world who has never actually used it before (nor have i used open office btw)...

but i haven't and this shit is complicated. i'd prefer to just write it in XML (seriously, not even kidding), but the publisher requires the use of their own template so regardless i'd have to get it to word one way or another

[Jung]

I don't think the idea is women have no effect on language. It's that (especially before now) our contributions were not seen as acceptable or valid and didn't enter lasting mainstream discourse (ie the discourse of men).

I think this is problematic when you apply it to a highly stratified mostly illiterate society with limited communications technology, which IIRC was the kind of society English did most of its evolving in, because in a society like that the concept of mainstream discourse as a coherent thing breaks down. Does it mean the literate elite hegemonic culture we get to read centuries later? That's not what most people actually experienced. Does it mean what the average peasant experienced? That's hardly going to be "discourse of men" because half of those are women.

You talk about internalisation but one thing to really think about is how our society trains women to be submissive, follow mens' leads, and not offer our own input on things, so having us offer a significantly smaller share of lasting language shouldn't be surprising, without laying it all on internalised misogyny.

I'd be wary of assuming that social analysis of present can be readily applied to the England of Richard the Lionhearted or Harold II. Which kind of ties into the first thing I said.

[Infinity Biscuit]

Doesn't the fact that something like two thirds of English ended up being French/Latin-through-French derived indicate that a lot of the language is in fact affected by the privileged in particular, even if they're a minority (let alone half the population)?

[Jung]

Doesn't the fact that something like two thirds of English ended up being French/Latin-through-French derived indicate that a lot of the language is in fact affected by the privileged in particular, even if they're a minority (let alone half the population)?

Probably. See also: Romance languages, Spanish in Latin America.

Honestly I mostly picked on it cause the narrative that women were basically helpless damsels in distress before 1900 or so bugs me.

[Infinity Biscuit]

That's actually another nice way to come at it. Look at how, if you actually dig deep, empowered women who do great things or fight against oppression have been around as long as said oppression existed, but they're systematically covered up, often inadvertently due to people's misogynistic blind spots. Absence of evidence of women's actions has been shown to not be evidence for their lack of existence but for the patriarchy being even shittier

then apply it to language

[RogueIce]

So in the spirit of the Halloween season I have decided to pull out my Nox Arcana CDs which I got years ago at an SCA event mostly as a lark and because I kind of liked the samples I heard. I only bought three of them and haven't listened in quite awhile, but having brought them forth once more I have come to realize that is an oversight I really need to correct. "Belladonna" from the Darklore Manor album is a particular favorite of mine right now:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=fovJqI-gFbo

I'll admit I'm a total sucker for the emotional orchestral music style and this really fits the bill. Somber, moody, atmospheric, pretty much any related adjective you can think of fits this one, and I love it. "The Forgotten" from the same album is a close second and has definite qualities of its own compared to "Belladonna" but I think B edges it out just slightly for being my fave.

Anyway, just wanted to share some spooky/gothic music for Halloween.

[evilsoup]

You talk about internalisation but one thing to really think about is how our society trains women to be submissive, follow mens' leads, and not offer our own input on things, so having us offer a significantly smaller share of lasting language shouldn't be surprising, without laying it all on internalised misogyny.

I would consider that an aspect of internalisation. Or internalisation is an aspect of this. They're strongly linked anyway, I think, or even just two ways of approaching the same underlying issue.

adr have you come across pandoc? It can convert from a bunch of marked-up plaintext into html, pdf and docx (and some other things). I think it can even work with some kind of xml if you prefer that to markdown for some bizarre reason.

[F.J. Prefect, Esq]

Doesn't the fact that something like two thirds of English ended up being French/Latin-through-French derived indicate that a lot of the language is in fact affected by the privileged in particular, even if they're a minority (let alone half the population)?

I'm not like a linguist or anything, but a friend of mine will sometimes say 'if L'Académie française is at odds with French speakers, L'Académie française is wrong'. Language is largely informed by use, which is why literally now also means figuratively and google means search. The installation of new words and new uses of words to dictionaries is largely driven by how words are actually used by the populace, not the other way round.

At least today, anyway. Things might have been different and like I said I'm not an expert. And maybe I just don't understand Dr Lerner means by 'there are none', because there totally are masculine gendered epithets in common use.

[zhaktronz]

Like dickhead

[F.J. Prefect, Esq]

Admittedly all of them are just variants on 'penis'

[Infinity Biscuit]

Most of the penis-based insults seem significantly less gendered, though (at least in my dialect of English; not sure about others), and again the thing there is that "dickhead" doesn't imply he's being shitty to a woman, while "bitch" is much more prominent when the "victim" is a man.

[F.J. Prefect, Esq]

Well I don't want to get too anecdotal or anything but 'prick' is a pretty common descriptor for dudes who are being shitty to my dudette friends

Like I take your point but we are well into the territory of speculah about the true origins of language

[Bakustra]

Well I don't want to get too anecdotal or anything but 'prick' is a pretty common descriptor for dudes who are being shitty to my dudette friends

Like I take your point but we are well into the territory of speculah about the true origins of language

language developed when i made out with the unliving deitylet Hand-Antelope-Baobab at the beginning of time and thought about Noam Chomsky

now you know the rest of the story