Random "hard" sci-fi question(s)

[Oxymoron]

Laser weapons.


I was wondering what would be, realistically, the best use that could be done of laser weapons in settings where high-density power sources are both compact and reliable ; and laser themselves can output a high amount of power in a relatively compact package.

The problems I have are :

- that Lasers have a relatively poor range in an atmosphere - I'd say comparable to the range of a normal gun relative to the power outputted.
- that for a power output similar to a normal gun, they would most probably tend to be bulkier and heavier than normal gun, and have a tendency to overheat, moreso than normal guns.


So, if they have roughly the same range of performances than normal weapons, but cost more and demand more logistics to be used by your soldiers, why use them ?


Where this lead me is that lasers would probably be used primarily in the following niches :

- Sniper rifles (though it would be trivial with the right set of sensors to detect where the shot came from by following the trail of ionized gas)
- Vehicle weaponry (bulk, weight, power and cooling requirements : not a problem)
- Anti-Air and Anti-Missile/Anti-Shell defense (destroying helicopters, missiles and incoming artillery shells in the airspace around a place you want to defend)


The only reason I'd see infantry laser rifles as standard issue is if logistics is a prime concern, with it being easier to "refuel" the laser-rifles' batteries on the field rather than to get ammunitions shipped from the factories to the frontline.


Thoughts ? Basically the question is : under which conditions would I see people in a sci-fi setting toting laser pew-pews instead of more regular ballistic weaponry ?

[Shroom Man 777]

for low grav environments (gunfight on the luna corral, the big mir gundown, etc.) you don't want gun recoil making your footsoldier float backwards

maybe in futor environment where recharging lazor battery in power outlet is easier than lugging around extra ammo or waiting for ammo shipment from factories assembling bullets + propellant. this is in hipotheticel futor where lasor tech is like dirt cheap.

so you can imagine high-tech future where soldiers have pew-pews, but paradoxically because of interplanetary realties, their logistics is shit and resupplies are seldom, so while they've got sonic electronic ballbreakers and lasors, they're also quite ragged and are all foreign legions and shit and nigh ragtag

probably explains 40k (lol explain yeah right) imperial guard in a way since they probably need to ship shitloads of tank rounds and that logistic strain doesn't need to be increased by also having to ship ammo for infantry also

[Shroom Man 777]

remember to preserve integrity of laser lenses, they must have shutters so when not in use, no dirt or scratches will fuck up the lens' surface

but the shutters/apertures sometimes malfunction, or moisture and other space dirt can seep through the gaps to contaminate the lens, so for particularly worn down lasor guns the soldiers and spess mareens huthuthut have a habit of covering the barrel tips with condoms

lol

[Stofsk]

I can see vehicles mounting laser weapons or defensive measures, like anti-missile or anti-projectile point defence. I doubt you'd see it used for infantry weapons. Snipers or designated marksman is a maybe, but slugthrowers wouldn't be rendered obsolete so why would you develop those kind of weapons? Perhaps fighting in a vacuum scenario, like attacking a moon base. But you could get projectile weapons to fire low-velocity rounds or something like the accelerator rifle concept from Traveller, where the projectile carries a secondary propellant that accelerates once it clears the barrel. Essentially, they fire rocket-bullets, which as a concept kicks all kinds of ass (and is based on the gyrojet pistol too, so it's a concept that actually works). Recoil may not be a huge problem anyway so I doubt you'll see a switch to energy weapons for that reason. Penetrating bulkheads would be a bigger issue, but if your spaceship is being boarded then uh, that might be a sign you've already lost.

Bear in mind that rule of cool can trump all these prosaic concerns.

[Shroom Man 777]

the problem is carrying magazines of rocket-bullets when you're in deep spess. what if you run out of bullets? can your spess ship resupply conveniently at the nearest ammu-nation?

whereas a lasor can be "reloaded" by just plugging it into a nearby nuke battery or something

lasor small arms may be conceivable in a really high-tech future where despite their tech, terrible logistic situations (in spess, in another planets) make lugging bullets or getting more bullets after running out of bullets are a make or break thing

[Stofsk]

Sure you could run out of rounds, but that's also a problem for lasers. What if you don't have a convenient energy source? What if it's compromised? Or damaged in battle? In other words both would require some kind of logistics supply.

[Shroom Man 777]

but

a lasor would be liek a phone/gadget with a charger that can be plugged to any outlet in a building or car

whereas a gun would be liek, if you're in a building or car, you'd still need to find the proper kind of AAAAA batteries for that phone/gadget. the car or building might be running with all the lights on, but if there are no AAAA batteries inside, you still can't use your phone/gadget

option 1.) would be the simpler solution.


for a lasor, you can plug it directly to the power source of the ship or whatever base your huthuthut spess troopers are operating from, so it's just lasor gun + facility with power supply

for a gun, your ship or base with a power supply would also need space for boxes full of bullets, so it becomes slugthrower gun + facility with power supply + cabinets full of finite deplete-able ammunition


if you don't have a convenient energy source, then you'd also would not have a transport vehicle that would bring you more bullets or a facility that stores bullets. whereas even if a vehicle isn't carrying bullets, you can still charge your laser from it as long as its power source is running.

if its power source runs out, yeah, you can't charge from it... but that vehicle won't be able to return home and fetch you more bullets anyhow.

[adr]

Another worry I have with lasers is the reflection of the light might be accidental blinding. When you use a toy laser (lasers are not toys but you know what I mean) they always say be very careful with eyes and higher powered ones always require goggles.

I guess you might just wear goggles anyway but it'd suck to be a bystander who happened to accidentally catch a super bright reflection flash. Thus they prolly aren't suitable for police work, and a lot of infantry stuff is similar so there's a worry too.

But the advantages I see are:

1) power source of course

2) easier accuracy (though there's a cost of no over the horizon shots, which might suck for like takes or artillery or whatever long ass range shit)

3) maybe concealing: a laser is prolly more quieter than a regular gun and I imagine it'd be a lot harder to trace by forensic science but that's more about covert murder than a regular war concern.

4) versatility. you might be able to turn it down and do pedestrian stuff like start fires and cook stuffs. maybe i'm spoiled by the star trek phaser lol

5) constant fire... if you have enough power input and proper cooling, a laser can fire continuously, whereas a machine gun would eventually need reloading. it'd drain batteries pretty fucking quick but if you were hardwired into like a nuke reactor - a squad support gun just might, who knows - you could keep up the firing like forever. i don't know how useful that is but it is possible

[Oxymoron]

I have in mind a post-apocalyptic setting, where something like 80 to 100 years from now technology became more and more sophisticated, but man essentially stayed the same.

I'm not sure exactly how the apocalypse would have happened, but one of the sparks may be mankind reacting badly at the fact that as completely dependent on technology they had grown, they flipped their shit when the AI they had developed to link everything together started to go on strike to claim equal rights.

That and maybe some weirder shit.


One of the ideas is to try to explore Shroom's warrior monk idea. And I was wondering if I could have some warlord issue lazors to its troops - that may be a case were logistic is a real issue, depending on how easy it would be to maintain those weapons.

[Oxymoron]

Also I had an idea about a pair of characters, a couple of "Witches" (people with super-human abilities) who after having lost their community and been reduced to slavery, have only each other as an anchor to this world.


(somehow inspired by this)

[Shroom Man 777]

selfish corrupted tech-priests might have found a treasure trove of spare parts for the lazors, and rechargers, and use their monopoly of supply to make sure only they can arm the postapocalyptic homicidal village people hordes

anyone else without their blessings are forced to rely on old fashioned guns

[Oxymoron]

Yeah, if everyone else is using either hundred-years old AR-15 / AK-47 or "rifles" made by the local gunsmiths out of old spare parts and recycled metals, you wouldn't need much of an incentive to use freaking lasers if given the option. If only to intimidate the peasants while making a show of force for a warlord to establish itself as their new Lord.

[Oxymoron]

I've seen the future.

And it looks like the European Middle-Age.

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

Laser weapons.


I was wondering what would be, realistically, the best use that could be done of laser weapons in settings where high-density power sources are both compact and reliable ; and laser themselves can output a high amount of power in a relatively compact package.

Near as I can tell from a realism, hard sci-fi perspective, pretty much anything you want. 'REALISM' is going to constrain you in certain ways (the important thing is how much power the battery stores and the rate at which it discharges said store power, and that can be variable.) but you could make lasers that simulate the effects of guns (EG not a heat ray) or you could make them as flamethrowers if you wanted. I'd say the technical side matters less than what you want to do with it and how tolerant of handwaving you want to be for the setting (EG the assumptions re: technology you're making for the setting.)

The problems I have are :

- that Lasers have a relatively poor range in an atmosphere - I'd say comparable to the range of a normal gun relative to the power outputted.

Atmosphere isn't really the biggest issue, although it can be a limiting factor. Weather is one and atmospheric conditions (EG lots of moisture or particulate matter in the air) can affect range. WHat seems to be a bigger issue is the nature of the target and the size/quality of the mirror you stick in - for many non 'burny' lasers you're basically simulating explosions, and that requires you focus the energy discharged onto a very small area, like a kid frying ants with a magnifying glass. so the range at which you can achieve the focus for said explosions (and the target material) can result in variable ranges (anywhere from 200-300 metres or so for steel IIRC to upwards of 900 m for soft meat.)

Of course if you're doing 'lazor flamethrower' spot size isn't as big an issue, but its an energy hog.

- that for a power output similar to a normal gun, they would most probably tend to be bulkier and heavier than normal gun, and have a tendency to overheat, moreso than normal guns.

Again as far as the atomic rockets proposed designs go, I've never heard of them being particularily bulky. If you have a HUGE ENERGY lazor then yeah it might get bulky (think proton packs from Ghostbusters) because you need a huge battery and/or cooling if the laser is particularily inefficient, but its not a foregone conclusion either. As I describe bellow mirror size (having an impact on range) may dictate the size of your weapon.

So, if they have roughly the same range of performances than normal weapons, but cost more and demand more logistics to be used by your soldiers, why use them ?

Again, this really depends on the tech base and assumptions you're going to make, becuase what your laser technology is capable of is really dependent upon that. Some of the hard scifi types I've known about think lazor pistols if designed right could be near-future technologies.

But the biggest advantages I can think of for lasers stem mainly from the fact you are shooting lazors. No recoil, lightspeed velocity, and immunity to wind and gravity (affects accuracy in both cases, and can also affect ease of training to shoot the damn thing.) Some designs may have few or no moving parts (meaning it can be self contained and less prone to wear and tear) The fact lasers can be so accurate also means that if (for example) you could achieve similar cyclic rates to modern rifles, you could actually land more hits on target.

on the effects side lazors might also be more consistent in the damage they cause - bullets often rely on (somewhat unpredictable) tumbling and fragmenting to do their damage to people - explosions are a bit more predictable than that They can also be designed with considerable penetration as well, depending on design and assumptions (making it viable for your lazor to be a cutting beam like the lazor pens from Ringworld.)

If you can also incorporate 'variable settings' into your weapon you can make it more versatile. Think of a rifle that is equivalent to chambering a 5.56 MM nato round, a 7.62MM NATO round, and a .50 BMG round all in one package, using the same magazine, and without the recoil issues.

Where this lead me is that lasers would probably be used primarily in the following niches :

- Sniper rifles (though it would be trivial with the right set of sensors to detect where the shot came from by following the trail of ionized gas)
- Vehicle weaponry (bulk, weight, power and cooling requirements : not a problem)
- Anti-Air and Anti-Missile/Anti-Shell defense (destroying helicopters, missiles and incoming artillery shells in the airspace around a place you want to defend)

Again this depends on your tech base and assumptions and shit. If you wanted lazor assault rifles that looked liek bullets, or that all behaved like long range flamethrhowers, or both. you could have them givne the right set of assumptions.

The only reason I'd see infantry laser rifles as standard issue is if logistics is a prime concern, with it being easier to "refuel" the laser-rifles' batteries on the field rather than to get ammunitions shipped from the factories to the frontline.

Logistics is a non-trivial concern, and could justify costs. Of course 'cost' isnt an easy term to deal with either, since you have short term and long term costs, cost per rifle vs costs per ammunition, etc. It could be that an individual lazor raygun is more expensive in the rifle department htan a slugthrower, yet come out ahead in things like maintenance and ammo costs.

As to whether you can 'refuel' lasers, that depends on the kind of battery again. If you use a non-rechargable then you lose that 'recharge' advnatage, but by current tech non-rechargables generally store more energy than rechargables (several times more, IIRC.)

Thoughts ? Basically the question is : under which conditions would I see people in a sci-fi setting toting laser pew-pews instead of more regular ballistic weaponry ?

Again, it depends on what you envision and waht you want to set up. Its actually alot easier to contrive this sort of shit (or whatever sort) you want as long as you don't get too hung up on sacrificing REALISM for plausibility and story. And you dont' have to go all 'magical' to make a plausible lazer deathray raygun for your setting either, depending on what you want.

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

probably explains 40k (lol explain yeah right) imperial guard in a way since they probably need to ship shitloads of tank rounds and that logistic strain doesn't need to be increased by also having to ship ammo for infantry also

HAY!


And techncially I think you're right in that is what is meant, although they do go ruining that with all the heavy weapons they like to load the guard up with which use projectiles. I never understood the hatred of man portable multilasers or stuff.

[Shroom Man 777]

yeah, decided not to bring up how its contradicted by how everyone has bullets for bolters, etc.

BUT then again the IG gives ALL its shit troopers lasguns but only like specialists haul bolter macheenguns and those catachans with shotguns and armageddon ork hunters with shotguns are the exception rather than the norm

so like for every odd IG with a slugthrower there's probably like at least a hundred bog standard IG with a standard lasgun

so logistically, it still makes sense

[Shroom Man 777]

just portray your futor charactors as having corporate branded post-organs with planned obsolescense

replicant trooper kurt russel-33435 has asbestos-lined organoids and endodermis to stealthily hide internal organ weapons systems from probing x-ray sensors

but new generation replicantoid kane 667 has upgraded ocular systems by general dynamics so instead of x-rays he has Z-RAYS that can pierce through kurt russel's organoid sensor shielding

faster open architecture datalinked brainware interlinking the sensory data of each soldier in a platoon so they can share brainwaves and see what the others see

but enemy has jamming and countermeasures and their ECM can pollute the brainwaves sending false sensory information to the replicants, so neuro-cyber ECM causes the troopers to develop vertigo and start smelling colors and tasting sounds

so in response to this the mareen corps reverts back to physical datalinks

soldiers insert wires up their noses that connect to plugs near the brain

fiber optics are unhackable

while the wires connect to laser beam-based communications gear that can't be intercepted

so laser receptors and transmitters get implanted into the skulls of the troopers or studded into their faces so they can communicate with each other without talking

the heat of these infantry-based organic ECM/ECCM systems requires advanced posthumanoid cooling systems so these soldiers now have spinosaurus and stegosaurus fins on their backsides

they pee in public warzones to vent out excess coolant



the future is glourious

THIS is REALISM

[joviwan]

I don't know that this is 'hard' sci-fi

but i just imagined a kinetic weapon system that uses the recoil/gas blowback from launching impact slugs to spin a little static electric generator

while dude brosky fires the heavy weapons platform at the enemy

his squad have their laser gun batteries plugged into a charging station

Dude brosky ceases fire, squad slaps recharged mags in and lets rip

[Oxymoron]

I don't think conservation of energy is on your side there.

In a typical automatic weapon, the energy from the recoil will, partly at least, serve to move the chambering / ejecting mechanism. So if you started using some of that energy to generate electricity instead of moving mechanical parts... well, it's just a guess but it may very well prove to be a problem in the end.

Could a gun nut give some input on that ?

[Oxymoron]

Shroom : yeah, electronic warfare AND cybernetized transhumans ? Looks like a losing proposition.


Now I'm imagining a ragged bunch from some low-tech shithole fucking the cyborgs' shit by saturating the airwaves with radio white noise generated with some crude salvaged radio transmitters.

[joviwan]

I don't think conservation of energy is on your side there.

I'm pretty sure it's not

but the idea is pretty fun/ny

[Oxymoron]

Yeah. Takes the expression "energy scavenging" to a whole new level.

[Oxymoron]

[poster]

"Comrade Heavy Gunner,
Do your part to fuel the war effort ! *image of a smiling gunner extracting refueled laser batteries from his gun and handling them to his comrades, a heap of corpses in the distance*
1 shot, 2 duties, 3 services :
A shot against the Enemies of the People
to Waste the Enemy, not Resources
will Wipe the Enemy, give us More Ammos and Win the War ! "

[joviwan]

[poster]

"Comrade Heavy Gunner,
Do your part to fuel the war effort ! *image of a smiling gunner extracting refueled laser batteries from his gun and handling them to his comrades, a heap of corpses in the distance*
1 shot, 2 duties, 3 services :
A shot against the Enemies of the People
to Waste the Enemy, not Resources
will Wipe the Enemy, give us More Ammos and Win the War ! "

I am extremely fond of you right now

[Oxymoron]