Bitching bitching.

[adr]

I would like it to be incredibly clear that simply ignoring racism, misogyny, etc only enables and normalizes the behavior. It should be challenged whenever it comes up and saying "get over it" or "just ignore it" is callous and offensive to people negatively affected by it. You do not have the right to tell people they're ridiculous when hurt or offended by terms that use their gender, race, etc as an insult.

You can go do it somewhere else if you feel compelled to be an asshole, but I'm tired of tolerating it here.

this

[Ralin]

I have every right to call bullshit on someone who declares a given word off-limits and then hides behind their race, gender, etc to put themselves beyond criticism for it, and if policy here says otherwise I'm guessing I'm going to be leaving.

[RyanThunder]

Ah well. You guys have become pretty boring lately anyhow. Tootles.

[Losonti Tokash]

You aren't hurt nor are you offended. But eh. Just go write up the approved list of epithets so we can move on already.

There will be no list of approved or disallowed epithets because that implies ones not on the list are acceptable and provides shitheads an incentive to try and get around by feigning ignorance.

Ralin, my heart bleeds for your plight. Truly, the real victim here is the man told to not use racial slurs.

[Flagg]

You said 'your'. Seems pretty obvious you're talking about us the inhabitants of the board. Not that it matters if you're talking more generally. End of the day you're just a big whiny child who can't handle getting told off for your poor behaviour. By all means continue to pretend you have some kind of moral high ground.

But I do have the moral high ground. Proven by the search results I posted that show that it only became an issue when I said the neutral form, while the owner of the board used it in a derogatory way, yet now is acting as if its the height of offensiveness when you know damned well it isn't. But hey, any excuse to rag on me am I right?

[Ralin]

Ralin, my heart bleeds for your plight. Truly, the real victim here is the man told to not use racial slurs.

Nah, the real victim here is everyone who has to listen to you being a lying, condescending ass.

Racial and gender equality cuts both ways, and it means you don't get a pass on backing up the crap you say and believe because of your minority status.

[Losonti Tokash]

You said 'your'. Seems pretty obvious you're talking about us the inhabitants of the board. Not that it matters if you're talking more generally. End of the day you're just a big whiny child who can't handle getting told off for your poor behaviour. By all means continue to pretend you have some kind of moral high ground.

But I do have the moral high ground. Proven by the search results I posted that show that it only became an issue when I said the neutral form, while the owner of the board used it in a derogatory way, yet now is acting as if its the height of offensiveness when you know damned well it isn't. But hey, any excuse to rag on me am I right?

No. It became an issue when women on the board said it offended them, people were instructed to not do it, and people cried discrimination.

Ralin, my heart bleeds for your plight. Truly, the real victim here is the man told to not use racial slurs.

Nah, the real victim here is everyone who has to listen to you being a lying, condescending ass.

Racial and gender equality cuts both ways, and it means you don't get a pass on backing up the crap you say and believe because of your minority status.

Do you actually realize what you're even saying? Do you think it's unfair you aren't supposed to call people the n word? Do you think there's a moral equivalence between "dick" and "cunt"?

[Flagg]

You said 'your'. Seems pretty obvious you're talking about us the inhabitants of the board. Not that it matters if you're talking more generally. End of the day you're just a big whiny child who can't handle getting told off for your poor behaviour. By all means continue to pretend you have some kind of moral high ground.

But I do have the moral high ground. Proven by the search results I posted that show that it only became an issue when I said the neutral form, while the owner of the board used it in a derogatory way, yet now is acting as if its the height of offensiveness when you know damned well it isn't. But hey, any excuse to rag on me am I right?

No. It became an issue when women on the board said it offended them, people were instructed to not do it, and people cried discrimination.

I'm sick of arguing over this.

[Ralin]

Do you actually realize what you're even saying? Do you think it's unfair you aren't supposed to call people the n word? Do you think there's a moral equivalence between "dick" and "cunt"?

"Cunt" and "bitch" are not slurs and comparing them to actual ones is ridiculous. Declaring that certain people don't get a say in whether they're allowed or not because of their minority status is flat-out insulting and a hell of a lot more offensive to me than any given bit of profanity.. Mainly because the more I hear these arguments the more certain I become that it's less about helping anyone and more about certain people having ego problems and latching onto a position that gives them an excuse to try and dictate what everyone else is allowed to say and think.

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

I'm sick of arguing over this.

Why are people on this board required to accomodate your viewpoints, rather than you adapting to what other people clearly feel is important? The crux of this problem is you seem to object to the notion of compromise or change simply because 'you don't like it.' If you dislike people here so much that you're unwilling to change for the sake of other people on this board, why are you even around?

[Flagg]

I'm sick of arguing over this.

Why are people on this board required to accomodate your viewpoints?

Why am I required to accommodate theirs? Especially when they are by and large total hypocrites who use the word themselves until big bad Flagg uses it?

[Flagg]

I'm sick of arguing over this.

Why are people on this board required to accomodate your viewpoints, rather than you adapting to what other people clearly feel is important? The crux of this problem is you seem to object to the notion of compromise or change simply because 'you don't like it.' If you dislike people here so much that you're unwilling to change for the sake of other people on this board, why are you even around?

No, the crux of the problem is the constant creep of over sensitivity and hypocrisy. And why did you attack me after I basically quit the thread while others are still arguing? Oh right, because this is and always has been largely a vendetta against me, rather than any real offense at the term "bitching".

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

I repeat, why am I, Los, or ADR (or anyone else who feels their way) expected to change our opinions/attitudes just to accomodate you? What makes you deserving of such special status above anyone else on this board? Don't try changing the subject or diverting it, answer the question, because what this entire argument boils down to is 'your opinion vs another opinion' over the board, and you obviously keep insisting your opinion hold sway because.. you say so.

[Flagg]

I repeat, why am I, Los, or ADR (or anyone else who feels their way) expected to change our opinions/attitudes just to accomodate you? What makes you deserving of such special status above anyone else on this board? Don't try changing the subject or diverting it, answer the question, because what this entire argument boils down to is 'your opinion vs another opinion' over the board, and you obviously keep insisting your opinion hold sway because.. you say so.

I'm not asking anyone to change their opinions or attitudes you fuckwit. They're the ones demanding everyone conform to their worldview. Or have you not been paying attention?

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

So then why are you aruging about this if it isn't a problem and you're expecting people to accomodate you? You're clearly angry that people DARE ask you to change your attitudes/habits simply for the sake of others, else this would not have gone on for six fucking pages.

Also explain why you think 'empathy' is a dirty word, because you clearly think trying to understand or accomodate other people's feelings is a horrible thing.

[Losonti Tokash]

Ralin, please enlighten me as to how terms that use femininity as insults are not misogynist, particularly after women in this thread have said so.

It'd probably do you some good to learn a bit about why it's not okay for majorities to dictate what is and is not offensive and degrading to minorities.

[Flagg]

But fuck it, I'm done with this thread. If you want to continue the argument respond to Ralin.

[Ralin]

Ralin, please enlighten me as to how terms that use femininity as insults are not misogynist, particularly after women in this thread have said so.

Because I don't associate feminity with bitches and cunts, and I'm not willing to sanitize my language to appease you? If you think those words somehow refer to all women instead of specific ones I don't like than that's your problem.

It'd probably do you some good to learn a bit about why it's not okay for majorities to dictate what is and is not offensive and degrading to minorities.

See, this is the sort of condescension and egotism I'm talking about. For fuck's sake, you made me agree with Flagg.

[Glass Fort MacLeod]

I think the point being made that it isn't about how you interpret or perceive language, but how others MIGHT interpret it. If you're dealing iwth people who know and understand you well enough that they can make allowances this may not matter - either they like you enough to undertsand your meaning, or they themselves arent' offended/interpret the language differently, whatever - but if its strangers you have no point of reference for telling whether or not they will take offense, and that requires more caution.

Los's opinion is basically (if I am reading it right) 'people need to be more careful about how they say things and the words they use to say it' precisely because of that ambiguity. It isn't even really about a particular word, because there's a whole slew of words that this could cause trouble with. And point of fact I agree with him BECAUSE I feel that people on the net need to pay more attention to the language they use with strangers. So many arguments arise (for example on SDN) because people aren't paying attention to what other people say or the potential meanings they may have (and getting clarification) they figure people must mean it the same way they themselves might mean it and then operate from there.

Case in point: I actually got along with stark a whole lot better once I started paying attention to what he said, paid more attention to what I said and HOW I said it, stopped assuming that what he meant was how I interpreted it to be, etc. I had in fact had the wrong idea about the guy all along, and it still amazes me how I didn't pick up on that simply because I wasn't bothering to pay attention.

[Djinnkitty83]

After some time thinking about it, I feel like we're going about this the wrong way.

First off, I don't like Flagg. I think he's a childish dick who represents some of the very same attitudes that drove me away from TEO, with a few other unpleasant quirks to boot.

But I also don't think this thread, the nature of this conversation, is the proper way to go about addressing mine and others' problems with him. Mostly due to the fact that, even though I still believe he needs to change, this sort of confrontation, without understanding where he's coming from, is not an ideal way to do that. And I'm an idealistic idiot who thinks that he *can* change if given the right incentive.

So I'm going to engage in some hyperbole and armchair psychiatry in the hopes that I can get my thoughts across.

I think Flagg needs to change, but I also realize that simply issuing an ultimatum is not conducive to this goal, as we're approaching the matter from a different mindset than him, and the disparity is blocking proper communication.

I believe Flagg is actually scared. Scared and offended. The thing is, Flagg has tied himself to this particular online persona that he considers it a part of himself. He feels being an offensive douchebag is an innate feature of him, and to ask him, or demand that he stop it, is essentially a personal attack on him. He's offended that people somehow expect him to change or repress his basic nature, but when he asks others to do the same in the form of 'growing a thicker skin' or 'dealing with it', he's not accommodated.

Yes, there is the fact that "being an asshole" is an entirely voluntary choice, not an innate orientation or something that cannot be helped or prevented. But Flagg doesn't see things that way, and he's so mentally tied with this online persona of "being an asshole" that he is convinced it is part of who he is. He's scared because he's convinced that if he's denied his right to be an asshole, he'll have nothing left to contribute. So when told flat out to stop, when issued ultimatums and threats of administrative action, his natural reaction is to get defensive, dig his heels in, and fight to the death to defend what he sees as an innate part of himself.

I feel it would be more productive on our parts, and have a greater chance of turning Flagg into a decent poster, if instead of 'laying down the law' and demanding he flat out change his habits, without taking into account his conviction that it is an innate part of himself... instead we be supportive and work to show that "being an asshole" is not an unchangeable part of who Flagg is, nor is it the only thing he has to contribute here. Work towards showing that there can be a distinct Flagg personality here without there being a habitually offensive douchebag.

So yeah, he needs to change, but I don't think this thread is the best way to go about it.

I would prefer people not to be jerks, but for those who want to be jerks, the board provides me the option of ignoring them, which I already use.

But that doesn't really work, does it? This isn't a big board, there aren't hundreds of members and dozens of topics going on at once where it's easy to ignore one and have a choice of other threads where the offending member has no impact. This board has, what, a dozen regular posters at best? And ignoring one who posts as prolifically has Flagg means likely over 10% of the board's conversation is missing, which just becomes more apparent given the number of other people who still quote and/or reply to him. You can't properly 'ignore' a regular poster on this board without removing yourself from the over 50% of threads that they're a regular contributor to and whose other participants aren't ignoring them.

[joviwan]

But that doesn't really work, does it? This isn't a big board, there aren't hundreds of members and dozens of topics going on at once where it's easy to ignore one and have a choice of other threads where the offending member has no impact. This board has, what, a dozen regular posters at best? And ignoring one who posts as prolifically has Flagg means likely over 10% of the board's conversation is missing, which just becomes more apparent given the number of other people who still quote and/or reply to him. You can't properly 'ignore' a regular poster on this board without removing yourself from the over 50% of threads that they're a regular contributor to and whose other participants aren't ignoring them.

Flagging Flagg for ignore has greatly improved my browsing experience of this forum (Well, flagging him and chockles). Yeah, other people reply to him or engage in a discussion, but at that point it's easy enough to ignore, and I never had to look at his eye-bleedingly stupid posts. I'm satisfied with that, and if more people continue decide they want to emulate his behavior, I'm happy to Enemies them, too. I value contributors like Los and Ford and Straha and whatnot too much to let a couple dumb-asses ruin the forum for me.

Because that's basically what it boils down to--letting dumbasses ruin the forum--and why I was advocating the ignore argument instead of the calling-on-shit argument. I agree philosophically with Los that it's not acceptable and should be discouraged, but there are zero (0) things I can do about it. Flagg/other jackasses wont listen, don't care, or will vehemently fight it. There's other things I want to do with my day than try to explain why being a shitbag is not a swell plan on the internet, especially when people like Los and ADR are way better at expressing it than I am.

And that leaves me with the tools I have: leave, or the ignore list.

[Infinity Biscuit]

Also, Flagg, I'm not sure if you're still reading this thread, but I want to address again the issue you have with being singled out.

I don't have the energy to call out everything that bothers me or I feel is bigoted or things along those lines, and if I'm not around I'd tend to feel awkward calling it out if there's been several responses since then. So I'm going to be inconsistent with calling stuff out, and most people are. And yes, I also believe that the noun form of "bitch" is worse than the verb form. I find them both problematic, but if you go by degree yes one is worse than the other. The reason your thread got called out was partially timing (in the middle of a big discussion about the topic of word usage) and partially because it had already been called out in a sense so I figured I'd just jump to the point and lay out the reasons why people would call it out.

And calling people out on past behavior rather than current isn't really meaningful. There's not like a bigoted language virginity; it's about changing current and future behavior, not purity throughout all time. I used to use some words I avoid now after I've put thought into what using them entails, too, and ones I'm still cutting out I may yet slip up on at some point. But I don't feel that detracts from the argument.

[evilsoup]

tbh the reason flagg got called out was because I was in a trollish mood :L

[Losonti Tokash]

tbh the reason flagg got called out was because I was in a trollish mood :L

[evilsoup]

it's got to be one of the best effort/reward ratios I've gotten out of trolling anyone